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Originally Posted by FoldnDark
But you really can't see how backlash to PC helped fuel all of what you just mentioned? What Trump had that all of those other Republicans who complained about PC over the years didn't was the balls to actually stick his finger up in the air and tell the PC police where to go. I feel like you read articles like this, and simply don't get it. http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ald-trump.html
Obviously there are plenty of complicit factors, including racism and all of the things the left want to lay on the right. But those things have always been with us, and they have been diminishing in our society for centuries. We have been slowly but steadily been improving, building a more perfect union, and this has been largely due to liberal ideals.
Abuse of PC, and the tribalism the comes from leaning too hard on identity politics does not align with liberal ideals and values, it's much more aligned with conservative authoritarian tendencies. These methods do not strive to convince, but to divide good from bad through emotional appeals to morality, and then to indoctrinate or purge.
Why do you keep asking me the same question over and over again? Yes, I can see evidence of a backlash. However, I don't see much evidence that this is a backlash against something new or politically significant. You think the size of the backlash maybe indicates that it does, but as we've already gone over, there are many other explanations for this increased size (if even that is real) as well, such as increased party polarization, the rise of social media, and so on.
You point to some phenomena - outrage at leftist illiberalism and intolerance. You say this outrage is evidence of increased intolerance and illiberalism among the left. However, this outrage could also be the result of social media, cable news, polarization, Cold War ending, etc. Thus, if you want me to prefer your explanation - that the left is getting more illiberal - then at minimum show me that the left is getting more illiberal. What you point to here, the size of outrage against the left, is just a repeat of what you are trying to explain in the first place.
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Originally Posted by FoldnDark
We had a short discussion earlier of why religion is not liberal, which I was pretty surprised to find you questioned. Maybe that's a part of our misunderstanding here. You can't expect to convert someone from one religion to another, at least not without an army. But you can eventually convince people to become enlightened by showing them better ways to find truth than revelation and dogma.
The bolded is obviously false, since that is exactly the expectation of most American Christians. I think what you are missing here is that liberal principles of government can be justified from many directions, not just secular Enlightenment rationality. For instance,
this is from the Second Vatican Council:
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Vatican II:
This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that in matters religious no one is forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs. Nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits. The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person, as this dignity is known through the revealed Word of God and by reason itself. This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right. (1965, art. 2)
Now, this is clearly a liberal principle. But this right of religious freedom is grounded in a religious conception of humans as having dignity because they are creations of God that is not accepted by atheists. You see similar kinds of religious justifications for other liberal principles. In fact, John Locke, one of the foundational thinkers of liberalism,
himself grounded human rights on an explicitly religious basis (this is why his conception of freedom of religion didn't include atheists as he thought they would be illiberal).
I think the difference in how we approach these issues is that I think that liberal principles can be justified within many different worldviews, including the leftist ones you are criticizing. So, instead of getting people who adopt those worldviews to completely reject them in favor of Enlightenment rationality, I think it is better to show the
utility and compatibility of liberal principles with the values they already accept.