Never mind that;

Because porn exists, Hollywood doesn't bother making any non-sexist movies or tv shows.

Because Journey doesn't feature a strong female character it's not art.

Now we're just arguing about arguing.

The point that I think goofy made stands, there's nothing wrong with addressing the sexist aspects of games wrt games and for the sake of games/the games industry. Porn doesn't really factor in at all in a discussion about the games industry, so it's silly to bring it up or pretend it's relevant in a discussion about the game industry.

One could certainly make an argument about sexism vis à vis porn, but this is neither the thread nor the forum for such a discussion.

Not sure if that's supposed to be a straw man or just straight up incoherant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_(2012_video_game)

For a thread about thought provoking commentary there sure are a lot of dumb posts.

Yeah I'm considering just moving all this sexism stuff to a new thread cause it's kinda bad.

He knows what Journey is, perhaps you should wikipedia what a strawman fallacy is

Perhaps you should wikipedia what "straight up incoherant" means.

I'm so old I thought he meant journey the band.

I thought CMAR might have as well because he said the comment was incoherent but apparently I just don't know what a strawman is.

Your statement is, at best, a complete non-sequiter and at worst indecipherable.

Nobody is calling Journey sexist.
Nobody is saying that art must be non-sexist to qualify as art.


We're obviously talking past each other at this point. So let me recap the discussion so far from my point of view so maybe you can understand our confusion. You're generally a reasonable guy, so I'll assume you're just doing a poor job explaining your position because frankly either we're completely misunderstanding you or you're not making much sense.

Thread: It would be good for the gaming industry to tone down the sexism and make more games that will appeal to women
O.A.F.K.1.1: Porn!
Thread: So???
O.A.F.K.1.1: Porn!
Thread: So???
O.A.F.K.1.1: PORN!!!
Thread: So???
Bluegrass: LDO! Porn!!
Thread: So???
Bluegrass: Sexism exists elsewhere (PORN!!) so there's no point in talking about sexism in video games. [This is the part where I hope we've misunderstood you].
Thread: That's ridiculous [Not looking to solve all of society's ills, just improve video games][gun control][movies are more closely related to porn than video games]
Bluegrass: Journey!!

You're basically straight up trolling in this thread. You've ignored this post, this post, and the only content you're adding now is choosing to out of nowhere be like "so you guys are saying games without females aren't art", which nobody whatsoever is saying.

If you aren't going to participate in this discussion in good faith (and actually engage the people that are making points to you), then don't post in it.

I did not mean to suggest that because there is sexism outside of video games that it's fine to make all games completely sexist. I (and I believe this was OAFK's point as well) just said that discussing sexism in games is like discussing how someone smoking causes pollution when he is driving a semi to dump some oil and coal in a fire. There are some things add a ton more to sexism in the world.

Once again, discuss it to death, but realize what it is. This being a video game forum does not make the problem any larger or smaller either. The problem is what it is no matter where it is discussed.



Can't believe I'm getting dragged into this just because I was defending his point but here goes:

I also mentioned Journey (BTW I don't see why that sentence is incomprehensible in the least bit) as a response to your hyperbolic statement which suggested that I was suggesting that because porn exists the movie industry should make sexist movies.

That is the same as taking the statement "It's not about making a dent in sexism. It's about making video games that are intelligent and can make thoughtful commentaries about society the way books and movies can"

and making the hyperbolic statement that no games without a female lead can be art. Equally ridiculous, equally hyperbolic imo.






Now onto your two reasons listed for why the video game industry should solve the sexism problem (once again I don't see it as a big problem)

1. If we want more intelligent, thoughtful commentaries on society we need stronger female characters.

Not really. Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't. Journey for example does not need any male or female characters to display its motifs. Most men are huge stereotypes in this medium as well, and it hardly detracts from the games. A lot of games I played, as I mentioned, have a sex neutral main character and I enjoy the hell out of them.

2. If there are stronger female characters more girls will play because they'll feel comfortable.

Not really. Tyrande Whisperwind and Jeyne Proudmoore were perfectly strong and well developed characters at the start of WoW. I imagine the reason they got left behind is because there were not nearly as many female players. I'd also need to see some proof that substantially more women players are willing to play games with a female lead. I personally think that's not the case and that girls just don't play video games that much. I do not have numbers on this though, and if someone can prove me otherwise I'd gladly admit to being wrong here. It would be like putting a Rambo sticker on a makeup kit to continue our awful analogies. Like the video you posted (still haven't finished watching) shows, some devs pour a ton of time, effort, and money into their games. It's just common sense that they are then going to advertise their game to the majority of their player base.





Also as an aside I already posted upthread a game which I thought had strong female characters.

Tyrande probably not the best example, given how overtly sexualized all the nelf wimmenz are. But if you do bother looking into a lot of the people's work that have researched this, there absolutely are a number of reasons why women don't get into gaming, and nearly all male protagonists is part of that. And oddly enough, the games women are nibbling on at the moment tend to be gender neutral games for the most part. So women are flocking to gaming, but not to HeMan-stereotype ultra-violence games that spend more on jiggle physics than Braid took to develop.

Yes, it's true that gender doesn't have to be a part of the main motif of a game to be considered as art, but a huge swath of the industry deals with gender, and it does so in about the worst way imaginable.

I haven't read your edit yet, so maybe you address some of this already.

This is probably the best point in this thread. Gender stereotyping isn't just limited to women. The fact is that on the whole video games rarely have interesting and complex characters of either gender. I think you'd find that in a lot of single player story driven games you will either find a good handling of both gender based roles or you will find that they handle both genders poorly.

good to know that because i like watching internet porn while i masturbate that i'm a disgusting, sexist pig that can never ever enjoy having a woman in a video game.

i was under the impression that this type of sex-negativism had been stamped out of most feminist circles. oh wait... it has been.

ITT we learn that sexism in video game happens in a completely sealed cultural vacuum and that airwave has no clue about contemporary feminism which is concerned as **** about Porn. Nice try reducing the issue to a single meme like sex negativism though.

Bluegrass, your posts still amount to: "let's not even try to do anything about it because it's too big a problem". That's just lazy.

Tackling sexism in games isn't solely about making them more inclusive for women. Hopefully all of us, as people who believe in gender equality and respecting women, should be uncomfortable when Bioware run a FemShep beauty contest. Or female warriors in fantasy RPGs wear bikini armour. Or when DoA devs devote their efforts to breast jiggling physics. Because these things don't just demean women, they demean us male gamers as well. They reinforce the negative stereotypes of gamers as awkward, geeky, immature boys who have no idea how to interact with a woman.

So many white knights in here.

There is more sexism against men in videogames than it is against women but men(and the few women) dont care cause they play a fictional game that peaks their interest. Women dont play those games cause it does not cater to what they like. simple as that and it has nothing to do with a couple of jiggly boobs.

And now some of you in here want the devs to make games for both guys and girls? Yeah a EA WNBA 2014 would sell millions of copies to girls right. It would be very unfair to the boys though to be alienated like that..

even though it is pc these days to say that gender is a social construct, hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution ( not to mention millions as pre-humans) strongly disagree. men and women are not the same. social sciences are not sciences.


for some good insight watch this series from norway tv: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ2xrnyH2wQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhULaCUqWWc


this thread is the worst display of white knighting i've witnessed since ''how can she slap''.

This is for all the white knights so you can remove the blindfold and actually challenge what is said and not just OMG yes women are oppressed and objectified.

Everyone is more than happy to combat racism today, but sexism? "Nahh, we fixed that already right? They can vote and stuff, let's move on."

I don't see how anyone in their right mind could argue that this does not apply to video games, and that our current depictions of females are "just entertainment" or "stereotyped the same as men." Seriously, there are some delusional men ITT denying the overly-privileged status that we maintain in nearly every facet of life.

Edit: "Oh it's just a game." "It's only a movie." "That's just a book." Ignorance. The art we consume contributes to the views of not only individuals, but is indicative of society's values overall. Each person in this thread has experienced art that helped them form ideas and beliefs that they reinforce to friends, family, and strangers everyday.

Well watch the vidoes and question what you have been spoonfed by the feminist movement. You will see that it isnt as clearcut as it might look.

Or do as all others that support the feminists and just close your eyes and keep spouting the messages without ever questioning what is said.

Also the series Brainwash-The gender equality Paradox that whynow posted is really an eyeopener and should be a must watch to even start discussing these matters


repost for those that dont wanna click links

I watched them before I posted. I'm all for alternate angles and multiple perspectives, but if you think that those three videos "dismiss" the notions we're talking about, then you're really proving the case.

It's not as though this "feminism idea" gives every woman a free pass. People who abuse an idea for profit are scumbags, male or female. Many other causes: race, religion, charity, etc., have been abused, but that doesn't undermine them as a whole.

Edit: Seriously, we are still transitioning from a period no less than 6,000 years where the majority of women have been treated as far and below their male counterparts. We are most certainly in the midst of some severe growing pains.