what is different from iww and communism.

It no wonder you can't defend "the fields are made by god" which is just a complete denial of reality. fields don't produce food, its the people who work the fields that do, and people produce at vastly different rates.

The soviets saw the small landowners, the kulaks, who had a few workers and were "rich" in comparison to the average farmer. So they liquidated this ~5% of the farmers and give the land to the reset, agricultural production tanked 50-70% in places, ukraine the most fertile land in Europe starved.

Zimbabe had great fields, the breadbasket of Africa, until the dictator decided to sieze the land from the white oppressors and give it to the workers and now its starving.

The idea that the means of production are god given is completely false. It is utterly ridiculous to believe in the falsehood.

We're a labor union. Communism is a political movement.

It always cracks me up when you go down the rabbit hole like this. We're not at war. There's nothing to attack or defend. Teams is just a shorthand for peeps like you... there are no real teams. There are no conspiracies between the 'Rightest' and 'Leftists'/etc/etc/etc.

All I was pointing out is that the expressions "means of production" and "factories and fields" are used interchangeable... by those peeps that happen to use them at all. Just a little insider trivia.

That is all.

saying you want an international union of workers is not a political organization? lol

don't pull that team bull**** when you want to sneer at American liberals yet cannot defend your personal ideology.

what is with this doublespeak, means of production are not "factories and fields". Do you want the workers to control the fields and give the machinery and seeds back to their owners? what nonsense

LOL give the seeds "back". Oh yeah for sure

My guess is that if Democratic Party staffers somewhere did decide to organize that they would probably not pick the IWW. They would probably want a union more active in party politics.

It's not just that it is contingent, it is that it is more more like trying to organize interns, i.e. people who are mostly trying to either resume-pad for future higher positions, or people trying to impress management so they'll get a full-time job after the campaign is over. Just not a great environment for worker solidarity.

Well, as I said, publicly they would be very supportive if it was successful. Would they also use union-busting tactics? It probably depends on the situation. Some NY Democratic politicians are ideologically committed to union power, so that might slow them down. My guess is that some would oppose it and threaten the organizer's livelihood, although probably only indirectly. But that is only a guess. As for whether they would use illegal tactics - right now the prior Assembly Speaker and Senate Majority Leader are both in prison, so I can't say that NY state politicians are as concerned with legality as they should be.

We're not political in that sense of the word.

We don't endorse candidates, parties, or initiatives. We don't waste our time or money on that shiz. We have a strict rule, expressed in one of our many sayings: "Check your politics at the union hall door". Noobs mess up all the time. We explain our rule. Not that it ever happens, but if a visitor attempted to disrupt our organizing by spewing that political gibberish... Sabo (short for 'sabotage') would escort them out the door.



My personal ideology is Neo-Goreanism. I'd be ecstatic if someone wanted to 'argue' about that. Please, bump my thread.

As for the IWW, we defend our right to organize by organizing. If you doubt we can defend ourselves... you don't know our history.

I clown on the Librulz because they're a buncha clowns. The same reason I clown on you. I call that a "level playing field" between you fools.

if you call posting gibberish clowning I guess

I guess living in a fantasy land may have benifits

More dog.

I don't live in a Fantasyland. That's up the I-5 ~100 miles. I live on the beach in San Diego. Now, a lot of fantastical things have happened at our beach over the years. Some of which I can now tell the story of, as the folks involved have gone onward. But, as we tell the noobs, those were different times, and you aren't going to believe a word we say.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/22...-sabo-1420473/

I gotta question here that I've always wondered. IIRC political parties can force their staffers to register for political party of their boss's choice. Do you know if that's true? I so, do the Donkeys so abuse their staffers?

One thing I haven't explained yet, is that the IWW is agnostic about gaining recognition, and we prefer not to sign contracts. We don't need no stinkin' 50%+1. We are monkeying with the constitution right now, but it used to be critical mass to charter a Job Branch (work site local) was five.

Organizations the purport to be unions, but are in fact in bed with the bosses, are called 'Company Unions'. Company Unions are illegal under US Law. They are also at variance with the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

Don't count on it. Union staffers unionize too. These are called 'Staff Unions'. There's plenty of examples of the Business Unions union-busting their own staff.

As a Donkey boss, I'm sure you'll be proud to hear that the political-industrial-complex has the well deserved reputation of being just about the most vicious and illegal union busting sectors there is. I think ACORN holds the record for the most NLRB losses... outside of, you know, industries that actually produce something.

We'll see how the Donkey reacts.

nobody puts Hanky Reardy in the corner

All hail our benevolent emperor Lord Jerbus Creaticus!

No one cares will, keep useing words any old way you want...

@Shame Trolly !!!1!

One thing about the English language is that words often have multiple definitions. For example,

There is going to be some burden on the reader to interpret words correctly. If a prerequisite for having a conversation and/or argument with you is redefining the English language from scratch, I'm not sure I'm interested.


Secondly, there are two threads of conversation going on here, one about whether certain kinds of risk should be "rewarded" and one about capitalism in general. You appear to be conflating the two in various places (such as when you responded to a post about risks with "that has nothing to do with capitalism").


Correct it is not.

Congratulations. I would offer you a cookie but I don't have any.

You have neither:
1) demonstrated you have any idea what a risk premium is as it refers to capital markets
2) offered any criticism of capitalism at all (aside from the bald assertion that the fight for civil rights etc. and the fight against capitalism are the same thing).

It seems to me that the "working class" and the "owning class" have a substantial degree of overlap and it is not clear to me why "has the power to hire/fire someone" is a useful cutoff point.

I haven't mentioned this ITT, but I was a dual major, math and philosophy. I went to a real College, UCSD. I did very well in college. I already know all this. Just like I already know what EV is, and variance, and the Kelly Criterion, and what risk-of-ruin is, and that risk-pooling lowers it etc/etc/etc. Now, I appreciate my fellow Politards all rushing to help me out. TYVM. But, I'm not a fool. And I find it mildly exasperating that youz guyz assume I am.

You can chat with me or not. You're not a fool, so I'd prefer that you do. I'm not "redefining the English language". I'm playfully pointing out you gotta little malfunction at your logical junction, regarding how you use a handful of your words. Everyone has this malfunction on lots of words. Unfortunately for you, the words you have this little malfunction regarding, are at the center of this chat.

Right now you&me are at the same place FoldnDark&me are at. If you wanna trust me, and let me make my points the way I feel like making them, and you have a whole lotta patience... I promise you 100% that you'll have an epiphany. I can ask tomdemaine, among others, to be my witness here too.

The reason you believe that I'm conflating here, is because of that malfunction I mentioned. That I'm not is the point I'm trying to make.

You are begging the question here.

To clarify: I haven't stated any formal 'position', and I'm not 'arguing' about whatev/etc/etc/etc. I'm having a chat. Now, if you really insist on 'arguing', I guess I could be talked into that shiz. If so, post your formal 'position', and I'll say if I'm interested.

I definitely do not think you are a fool. And to be fair, I don't think I ever tried to explain to you what EV, variance, the Kelly Criterion, risk-of-ruin, risk pooling etc. were. What I did try to explain was the concept of a risk premium as it relates to investment markets.

Also, I never defined "premium" as "lower variance" and I would not agree with that definition.

Fair enough.

Meh, I trust that you are posting in good faith.

Okay.

I don't understand. What conclusion have I assumed? Is it
a) That you do understand what a risk premium in capital markets is?
b) That the risk premium is a real thing?

I thought your formal position was "capitalism bad" but okay. Maybe later we can argue but for now I'm more interested in understanding the point you are trying to make.

No. You're mistaken assumption is that any of this shiz is relevant to what I'm yapping on about.

Lol no. That's not even a formal 'position'. A formal 'position' might be "Given that X is bad, is X a necessary part of capitalism". I'm not really that interested in having that 'argument' either.

However, I'm always interested in trying to make the point I was trying to make. In fact, that's the second biggest reason why I post here.

Well, okay. It seemed like a good assumption at the time, given that it was definitely relevant to the posts that you replied to.

Okay, well I am interested in what your point is. Where do we go from here?

This is because you don't understand what the word 'class' means in this context. We are a labor union. Hire/fire is the cutoff between manager (them) and worker (us). Our core mission is to fire the bosses, and erase that cutoff.

IWW: How to Fire Your Boss - A Workers Guide to Direct Action

Well I'm going keep asking you questions like I have been. You will often find them pointless, pedantic, and annoying. I'll keep quite literally keep going around in circles. Then, at some random point in the future, either you'll (a) get bitter like FoldnDark, (b) we'll both get bored and quit, or (c) you'll have that epiphany I promised.

It would really help me if I knew how you prefer learning things, because there are other ways to get there than what I sketch out above. Also, it would help if you have some background in math, philosophy, or computer programming.

Yeah, I'm in for some rounds of questions. I have degrees in math and computer science. I do not have much background in philosophy.