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Old 02-23-2017, 03:39 PM   #1551
wil318466
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie View Post
Besides the possibility of there being so many of them you'll have many reliable allies? Really, Why does any one want supporters and allies?

As a person who actually investigated what becoming an ally entails with a particular group of people who asked i found stuff out. Part of being helpful is finding out what can help and what doesn't. Learning about people.

I'll try to be helpful in an information sharing way:

It seems a common want and need of people who face oppression and erasure is a want for the whole world to know and remember what isn't stopped. So when you see an ally telling things to know about people, saying what is going- that is what is happening. No self-hate, victimizing, class schemes, or colorful guilt even required. People have a demand for help and people have a supply of privilege and ability to help.
I have a lot of trouble understanding you sometimes. I read it like 3 or 4 times and still don't get it. Can we take it a bit slower? What are you asking me here?
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:40 PM   #1552
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
OK, so maybe we are miscommunicating. What did you want me address?



As opposed to what?

You're a young black guy and didn't get a call back for a job. What are your options?
I understand that your world view and your personal goals never deviate from being focused on just yourself, so don't take this the wrong way when I say that sometimes people do things for the greater good of others.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:41 PM   #1553
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Re: President Trump

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If they think none of their problems have any root in white supremacy I think they're pretty incorrect, and so would the volumes that Ta-Nehisi Coates has written on the subject.
I would think that given their history, the AME church is well acquainted with fighting white supremacy of old and recognizes it when it occurs. It's just not considered to be a concern anymore.

To the extent that there might be racism in policing and sentencing, that is what the community outreach is for; to meet them halfway and promote understanding between communities.

However, the overwhelming consensus is that much of the racism is due to self-inflicted wounds, and better policing needs to be done by both the black community and the police working in tandem to turn out the criminal elements. As one congregation member told me after we were stopped by police once, "(The problem) isn't the police. It's n***ers. They're ruining it for everyone." Another one put it to me as being akin to (paraphrasing here) how the Italian Americans faced a lot of **** back in the 80s and 90s due to the mafia, but since they eliminated their influence, Italian Americans are just treated normally now.

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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
I'm white, but I do make a strong effort to be in touch with the black community so to speak.
Perhaps you need to visit an AME church. Wil's mindset is the much more prevalent one there. I still remember a sermon where the preacher said that if you fail in life, "don't blame your parents, society, the white man, or God. Blame yourself. Your life is your responsibility."
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:44 PM   #1554
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
OK, so maybe we are miscommunicating. What did you want me address?



As opposed to what?

You're a young black guy and didn't get a call back for a job. What are your options?
Based on some of the posts in this thread, he should go on Twitter and make a tweet about it

What should he really do? Learn valuable skills, invest in his education, send out more applications, maybe build some connections through an internship or temp-job ...
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:45 PM   #1555
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Re: President Trump

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As one congregation member told me after we were stopped by police once, "(The problem) isn't the police. It's n***ers. They're ruining it for everyone."
That's a great example of how white supremacy in U.S. society can easily be absorbed by people of all races and classes.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:45 PM   #1556
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Re: President Trump

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OK, so maybe we are miscommunicating. What did you want me address?
You seemed to be saying, from the question I asked you, that since one can be happier by not thinking that white supremacy or whatever is stamping out your potential in life, and instead using positive energy to try to do the best for yourself that you can, that you should ignore it. I think there are numerous examples (a couple of which I mentioned in my last post) that suggest you shouldn't necessarily ignore something just because ignoring it makes you happier.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:45 PM   #1557
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by Mori****a System View Post
if you fail in life, "don't blame your parents, society, the white man, or God. Blame yourself. Your life is your responsibility."
While this is a good truth, I don't see it as a end-all argument against why we should be against trying to remove artificial hurdles making people's lives more difficult.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:46 PM   #1558
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Re: President Trump

Noone is saying young people shouldn't work hard to invest in their education. But unfortunately education isn't accessible to everyone and it's very expensive even for those who have access. I'm saying we protest and activate until our tax dollars provide for university education for everyone who is willing to work for it. This would have broad positive effects on the economy as a whole, not just for black Americans.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:47 PM   #1559
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by Mori****a System View Post
I would think that given their history, the AME church is well acquainted with fighting white supremacy of old and recognizes it when it occurs. It's just not considered to be a concern anymore.

To the extent that there might be racism in policing and sentencing, that is what the community outreach is for; to meet them halfway and promote understanding between communities.

However, the overwhelming consensus is that much of the racism is due to self-inflicted wounds, and better policing needs to be done by both the black community and the police working in tandem to turn out the criminal elements. As one congregation member told me after we were stopped by police once, "(The problem) isn't the police. It's n***ers. They're ruining it for everyone." Another one put it to me as being akin to (paraphrasing here) how the Italian Americans faced a lot of **** back in the 80s and 90s due to the mafia, but since they eliminated their influence, Italian Americans are just treated normally now.



Perhaps you need to visit an AME church. Wil's mindset is the much more prevalent one there. I still remember a sermon where the preacher said that if you fail in life, "don't blame your parents, society, the white man, or God. Blame yourself. Your life is your responsibility."
The two things I like about this post is the bolded is clearly wrong and I NEED a citation on it, or that a congregation member told you a Chris Rock joke from 15 years ago and you've repeated it as a fact about an entire race.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:48 PM   #1560
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Re: President Trump

These are OUR tax dollars that are being redirected to massive corporations, stockholders, and high income earners. I'm saying we demand they be spent properly, that's about taking action not about being a victim.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:48 PM   #1561
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
That's a great example of how white supremacy in U.S. society can easily be absorbed by people of all races and classes.
It's literally just a Chris Rock joke.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:48 PM   #1562
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by Lord_Crispen View Post
I understand that your world view and your personal goals never deviate from being focused on just yourself, so don't take this the wrong way when I say that sometimes people do things for the greater good of others.
Who exactly is doing what for who?

I mean, I am responsible for myself. I work to achieve those goals so that I can be self sufficient and achieve the things I want out of life. Are you implying something is wrong with that?

Let's pretend you are me. What would you be doing that would be so more satisfying and meaningful for others that I am not? Should I be out there protesting with the Asian American association of America?

I'm being serious. You are implying I'm selfish. I treat others with respect and as my equals. I take care of myself and my family and I try my best to lead a moral life. What am I missing?
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:48 PM   #1563
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
That's a great example of how white supremacy in U.S. society can easily be absorbed by people of all races and classes.
I had some white friends from South Carolina once repeat that same quote almost verbatim to me when talking about "the problem with black people".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mori****a System View Post
However, the overwhelming consensus is that much of the racism is due to self-inflicted wounds
All the pixels in the world could not possibly form an eyeroll large enough for the one this bit here deserves
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:49 PM   #1564
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Re: President Trump

System would do very well with reading "the case for reparations" even just once.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:50 PM   #1565
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
I have a lot of trouble understanding you sometimes. I read it like 3 or 4 times and still don't get it. Can we take it a bit slower? What are you asking me here?
I asked why people ask for allies. Why do people ask for allies?

I informed about what people who ask for allies tend to want. or, What people facing oppression and erasure tend to ask for.

They want and ask for the word to get out and grow.

I showed how people who help are just doing a normal human thing which can even be shown using a simple economic analogy.

I can imagine this looks lopsided when oppression and erasure are being ignored or hidden. Allies are helpful when they see that stuff clearly.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:50 PM   #1566
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Re: President Trump

For all those saying the black young person should invest in his education,

Do you stand with me in fighting for free public university access for all U.S. citizens?
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:52 PM   #1567
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Re: President Trump

Unrelated: so this seems kinda scary, yeah? Are conservatives cool with this?

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Old 02-23-2017, 03:55 PM   #1568
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by aoFrantic View Post
The two things I like about this post is the bolded is clearly wrong and I NEED a citation on it, or that a congregation member told you a Chris Rock joke from 15 years ago and you've repeated it as a fact about an entire race.
Clearly you need to learn how to read. I am referring to the opinion of many people from the AME church, not a factual citation about an entire race. Your citation for such an opinion would be to go visit an AME church and ask people for their opinion.

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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
That's a great example of how white supremacy in U.S. society can easily be absorbed by people of all races and classes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Crispen View Post
While this is a good truth, I don't see it as a end-all argument against why we should be against trying to remove artificial hurdles making people's lives more difficult.
It is not an end-all nor is it some sort of absorption of white supremacy, as I mentioned about community outreach to the police and other communities to combat bad perceptions of the black community. It's called meeting the other communities halfway. Given the AME church's history in fighting white supremacy in the past, I do not think it is unreasonable nor steeped in white supremacist thought.

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
All the pixels in the world could not possibly form an eyeroll large enough for the one this bit here deserves
And what would you have me say to the church once I visit them again? What is your solution?
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:58 PM   #1569
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Re: President Trump

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Given the AME church's history in fighting white supremacy in the past, I do not think it is unreasonable nor steeped in white supremacist thought.
I think you're misunderstanding what people mean here when they say "white supremacist thought." We're not saying that the church member has some devious association with the KKK and he's trying to create an all-white America. Rather, the ideas associated with white supremacy have been absorbed into his mind through all the same ways that media gets them into the minds of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh viewers (hell, plenty of people of color absorb these sources). Remember that especially pre-2010, the media was very lowest common denominator and it's not like there was that much "black" media. Most black Americans watched white media for the most part and absorbed culture and ideas about race and society through those media.
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:00 PM   #1570
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
You seemed to be saying, from the question I asked you, that since one can be happier by not thinking that white supremacy or whatever is stamping out your potential in life, and instead using positive energy to try to do the best for yourself that you can, that you should ignore it. I think there are numerous examples (a couple of which I mentioned in my last post) that suggest you shouldn't necessarily ignore something just because ignoring it makes you happier.
I think it's interesting that in every category in life when something bad happens we try our best to get past it and look forward to our future, except when it comes to white liberals and their self hate, and constant blaming of everyone's problems on white racism.

I don't let racism consume me. I look forward, I concentrate on the positive things, not the negative. White people can indeed be racist, but some of that is expected as they are the majority. If the majority was black, they'd be racist. If the majority were Asians, we'd be racist. Each of us has to get past it.

It seems you don't agree and it's something you want to revisit all the time. White racism isn't what is stopping people from succeeding.

Last edited by wil318466; 02-23-2017 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:00 PM   #1571
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Re: President Trump

Did you guys know that the television show Sanford & Son was written by an all-white writers room. Now the show was never actively discriminatory or attacking towards black Americans that I know of, but just that very fact alone denotes that the culture and values of the show are reflective of WHITE institutions moreso than you would think, or even WHITE institutional ideas of how black society operates (in an age way before social media, where segregation and disconnection was even more rampant in society).
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:01 PM   #1572
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Re: President Trump

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White racism isn't what is stopping people from succeeding.
Well, that's right in a way at least. What's stopping people from succeeding is the redirection of resources away from black communities and towards white communities. Racist institutions play the role, but the RESOURCES are the key at the end of the day--even with President Obama at the top of the executive branch, the flow of RESOURCES is still institutionally segregated and deeply deeply so.
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:04 PM   #1573
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie View Post
I asked why people ask for allies. Why do people ask for allies?

I informed about what people who ask for allies tend to want. or, What people facing oppression and erasure tend to ask for.

They want and ask for the word to get out and grow.

I showed how people who help are just doing a normal human thing which can even be shown using a simple economic analogy.

I can imagine this looks lopsided when oppression and erasure are being ignored or hidden. Allies are helpful when they see that stuff clearly.
It seems to me that white people are very very very well aware of and downright paranoid of racism towards blacks. Other than treating people as equals and with respect, what should they be doing? What is the difference between an "ally", and someone like me?
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:07 PM   #1574
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
Unrelated: so this seems kinda scary, yeah? Are conservatives cool with this?
...
So what is the problem with showing your ID documents when leaving a plane?
What exactly is the "scary" part?

I could see some disadvantages if this were some sensitive personal data, but showing your ID, which you have to carry anyway in order to even enter the plane, seems very harmless to me.

What am I missing?
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:08 PM   #1575
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Re: President Trump

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Well, that's right in a way at least. What's stopping people from succeeding is the redirection of resources away from black communities and towards white communities. Racist institutions play the role, but the RESOURCES are the key at the end of the day--even with President Obama at the top of the executive branch, the flow of RESOURCES is still institutionally segregated and deeply deeply so.
Only two generations ago black people couldn't even get a mortage.
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