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02-21-2017 , 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey
I've never seen an article that shows this. All the articles I've read that try to make this claim were written for and by people who don't understand statistics. Do you have an article or paper under 25 pages (ie- I don't have a lot of free time tonight, but if it is short I can manage it) that supports your claim? Or is this one of those cases where someone thinks there is more of something just because they hear more about it.
heres one on chicago

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/14/u...inds.html?_r=0

cleveland recently had an investigation by the feds that only concluded that black ppl felt they were unfairly targeted. ofc, this city has had multiple awful incidents the last few years. the report did find that cleveland police are pretty much terrible ppl who routinely use way too much force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice

cop pulls up and shoots a 12 yr old approx 3 seconds after arriving. ofc he got in no trouble.

then theres the incident where a bunch of police chased 2 black ppl in a car after it backfired and they thought it was gun shot. they put like 130 shots into the car including a policeman standing on top of the car and firing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooti...lissa_Williams
02-21-2017 , 09:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer
Are you saying this is the least racist time ever, or simply that it's not the most racist?
Yes, I think this is the least racist time in our history. There is still a lot of room for improvement of course.
02-21-2017 , 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor
heres one on chicago

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/14/u...inds.html?_r=0

cleveland recently had an investigation by the feds that only concluded that black ppl felt they were unfairly targeted. ofc, this city has had multiple awful incidents the last few years. the report did find that cleveland police are pretty much terrible ppl who routinely use way too much force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice

cop pulls up and shoots a 12 yr old approx 3 seconds after arriving. ofc he got in no trouble.

then theres the incident where a bunch of police chased 2 black ppl in a car after it backfired and they thought it was gun shot. they put like 130 shots into the car including a policeman standing on top of the car and firing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooti...lissa_Williams
The NYT article seems to have teeth, but I would have liked to see them mention testing the higher minority arrests/shootings against income to see if the officers are targeting people in neighborhoods that have higher crime. Either way, placing 100% blame on the police for higher arrests rates among one race is just wrong.
02-21-2017 , 10:26 PM
You're right. It's the racist legislative and judicial systems that are to blame for this mess as well.
02-21-2017 , 10:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey
For example: at least part of the reason AA are more likely to be arrested than other races is because of the neighborhoods AA are more likely to live in. Cops to tend spend more time in low income neighborhoods so if there is a higher % of AA in those neighborhoods (than the national avg.) I assume that is part of the reason for the more arrests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey
Either way, placing 100% blame on the police for higher arrests rates among one race is just wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
You're right. It's the racist legislative and judicial systems that are to blame for this mess as well.
^ yeah, this, though I wouldn't be surprised if bahbah thinks some % of that 100 is black people wearing their pants too loose.

Ta-Nehisi Coates, in Between the World and Me:

Quote:
The killing fields of Chicago, of Baltimore, of Detroit, were created by the policy of Dreamers, but their weight, their shame, rests solely upon those who are dying in them. There is a great deception in this. To yell "black-on-black crime" is to shoot a man and then shame him for bleeding. And the premise that allows for these killing fields - the reduction of the black body - is no different than the premise that allowed for the murder of Prince Jones. The Dream of acting white, of talking white, of being white, murdered Prince Jones as sure as it murders black people in Chicago with frightening regularity. Do not accept the lie. Do not drink from poison. The same hands that drew red lines around the life of Prince Jones drew red lines around the ghetto.
(dreamers = something he talks about a lot in the book but basically white people, Prince Jones = someone he knew in college who was later killed by a cop)
02-21-2017 , 10:42 PM
Racial disenfranchisement -> poorer and less educated black Americans -> the idea that "blacks are just inferior" -> justification for more racial disenfranchisement because "they're just ignorant and apathetic anyway." -> poorer and less educated black Americans -> the idea that "blacks are just inferior" -> justification for more racial disenfranchisement because "they're just ignorant and apathetic anyway." -> ad infinitum.
02-21-2017 , 10:44 PM
Oh yeah and in 2017 you get to throw in the lovely "that was all in the past, so people today have no excuses" BS into the whole cycle. Makes it all that much more effective.
02-21-2017 , 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey
.I guess I have to reiterate my point again: Yes, there are racist cops... but you are a crazy person if you think the entirety of the US police force is more racist in 2017 than any other time in the history of this country.
I wouldn't make that claim at all.

Quote:
BTW- If you regularly visit that site I feel bad for you.
I'm not a big fan of The Intercept. But they did break the story.
02-21-2017 , 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
Racial disenfranchisement -> poorer and less educated black Americans -> the idea that "blacks are just inferior" -> justification for more racial disenfranchisement because "they're just ignorant and apathetic anyway." -> poorer and less educated black Americans -> the idea that "blacks are just inferior" -> justification for more racial disenfranchisement because "they're just ignorant and apathetic anyway." -> ad infinitum.
I hate that the response to things like this is usually "Stop making them the victims. You're making them feel trapped! They can just pull themselves up by the bootstraps, etc"
02-22-2017 , 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Crispen
I hate that the response to things like this is usually "Stop making them the victims. You're making them feel trapped! They can just pull themselves up by the bootstraps, etc"
Just increase the minimum wage and things will improve a lot right?
02-22-2017 , 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer
Your argument is facile garbage and basically boils down to looking at the DoJ report and saying "nuh uh".



Yeah, no, your **** doesn't deserve the time of day.
Black people are 8 times more likely to resist arrest as well.
02-22-2017 , 08:54 AM
Somebody talks about black men going go jail or committing crimes they are called a racist.

Somebody talks about men going to jail or committing crimes they are not called sexist.

Hmmm!
02-22-2017 , 09:14 AM
Bah bah a long time ago you claimed you couldn't be racist because no one chimed in to back letsgsmbool. I was too lazy to log in and post. Everyone thinks what he thought. Later.
02-22-2017 , 09:39 AM
Some continuing racism is scheduled for 2 o'clock today in North Dakota. Thanks, trump.
02-22-2017 , 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adios
Just increase the minimum wage and things will improve a lot right?
No, although that would definitely help. Increase min. wage, integrate the public schools, fund public universities again, end the War on Drugs and mass incarceration, get independent redistricting in every state, equal representation for black Americans in the judiciary, etc. etc., THEN things would improve a lot.

This wouldn't just improve lives of black Americans though--make no mistake about it. It would also give white kids from rural California to rural Appalachia a fighting chance in the modern tech-based economy.

Last edited by einbert; 02-22-2017 at 09:51 AM.
02-22-2017 , 10:44 AM
The hypocrocy of the left makes it hard to take them serious. You're all over Trump for being anti semitic yet you've said nothing about Obama who is arguably the most anti semitic President ever.

Trumps son in law and daughter are Jewish. The leader of Israel loves Trump. The people of Israel love Trump....and you call him anti semitic?

http://lidblog.com/the-obama-adminis...showing-again/
02-22-2017 , 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
The hypocrocy of the left makes it hard to take them serious. You're all over Trump for being anti semitic yet you've said nothing about Obama who is arguably the most anti semitic President ever.

Trumps son in law and daughter are Jewish. The leader of Israel loves Trump. The people of Israel love Trump....and you call him anti semitic?
Well, Trump has hired Steve Bannon as his White House Chief Strategist. He retweets white nationalist memes all the time, as do his top people Conway, Miller, and others. This piece may be eye-opening for you on the duality of the whole thing, but if you think about it it's really not that complicated. Trump and Bannon support a kind of apartheid state in the United States--a return to Jim Crow disenfranchisement through voter suppression and draconian immigration enforcement--and Netanyahu of Israel supports a similar apartheid state against Palestinians. They have common interests in mind at all times.

How Steve Bannon and Breitbart News Can Be Pro-Israel — and Anti-Semitic at the Same Time
http://forward.com/news/israel/35440...-semitic-at-t/
Quote:
Breitbart News, the site chaired by Donald Trump chief strategist Steve Bannon, is widely known as a platform for white nationalism and anti-Semitism. It is also brazenly Zionist, albeit peddling an exclusively right wing perspective on Israel.

Trump’s Jewish supporters have pointed to Breitbart’s Zionist stance to defend the president-elect’s choice of Bannon, who was painted as an anti-Semite by his ex-wife in court documents. Bannon denied making the anti-Semitic comments.

“He was and is and remains staunchly pro-Israel,” said Abe Katsman, the chief counsel for Republicans Overseas Israel, who has written for Breitbart News.

Yet though it would seem impossible to hate Jews but love the Jewish state, these two viewpoints are not as contradictory as they appear.

There is actually “little correlation” between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, according Steven M. Cohen, a sociologist at the Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion. To be sure, anti-Semitism is found among the anti-Zionist left. But it is also found among the Zionist right.

“Many people who dislike Jews like Israel and many people who are critical toward Israel are affectionate toward Jews,” said Cohen.

Breitbart News isn’t the only place where anti-Semitism and Zionism go hand in hand. Anti-Semitic attitudes abound in Poland, for example, even as Poland has a strong diplomatic relationship with Israel.

This duality is a central component of “Trumpism,” said Yael Sternhell, a Tel Aviv University professor of history and American studies. Though Trump has flip-flopped on the Middle East, he has professed an ultra-right view of Israel that would seem to outflank even Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. He also has a Jewish son-in-law, and a daughter who converted to Judaism. At the same time, many of Trump’s followers spout anti-Semitism.

“As long as Jews are in Israel fighting the ‘good fight’ with the Arab world as a bastion of American ideals and values in the Middle East, then they are very useful and admirable allies,” said Sternhell. “Once they are home demanding a multi-cultural democracy, demanding that the country accommodate their religion, their belief and their custom that is a different story.”

Some on the alt-right, the emerging group of racist activists who support Trump, oppose the close U.S.-Israel relationship as part of a broader critique of U.S. interventionism abroad. Yet they admire Israel as a “model for white nationalism and/or Christianism,” according to the right-wing online encyclopedia Conservapedia. Some also see Jewish immigration to Israel as helping their cause of a Jew-free white America.

The coexistence of anti-Semitism and right-Wing Zionism “in Trump’s world make sense,” said Todd Gitlin, the Columbia University sociologist and cultural commentator in an email to the Forward.

“Anti-Semitism and right-wing Zionism are varieties of ultra nationalism, or, to put it more pejoratively (as it deserves to be put) tribalism. They both presume that the embattled righteous ones need to bristle at, wall off, and punish the damned outsiders. They hate and fear cosmopolitan mixtures. They make a fetish of purity. They have the same soul. They rhyme.”

Breitbart News, which became a mouthpiece for the Trump campaign, was actually started by a Jewish lawyer and businessman, Larry Solov. In addition to reporters in London and the United States, the site has a small Jerusalem bureau, which is helmed by journalist Aaron Klein. Attempts to reach Klein and two journalists who write for Breitbart Jerusalem were unsuccessful.

In a 2015 post announcing the opening of the Jerusalem bureau, Solov wrote that Breitbart News itself was conceived of in Israel, when Solov traveled to the Holy Land with Andrew Breitbart, now deceased.

“One thing we specifically discussed that night was our desire to start a site that would be unapologetically pro-freedom and pro-Israel. We were sick of the anti- Israel bias of the mainstream media and J-Street,” he wrote.

At the same time, the site trafficked in anti-Semitic tropes. One article called Washington Post columnist Anne Applebaum a “political revisionist,” noting “hell hath no fury like a Polish, Jewish, American elitist scorned.” Another called The Weekly Standard’s Bill Kristol a “renegade Jew.”

Bannon’s ex-wife branded him as an anti-Semite in 2007 court documents, in which she describes Bannon complaining about “whiny brat” Jews at their daughters’ school, according to the New York Daily News. Bannon denied that he made the comments, through a spokeswoman.
Obama was anti-semitic? Give me a break, I don't even think people on the right believe claims that stupid.
02-22-2017 , 10:58 AM
And beyond all that, it is really really a problem that white people have that they think because they have, for example, a close black friend that they are all of a sudden immune from saying or doing racist things. This is absolutely not the case. Being racist is a natural extension of being born and raised in the United States, a white supremacist society, so what someone should do is reflect on that fact rather than be defensive when people tell them racism is a big problem in the United States.
02-22-2017 , 11:01 AM
So is hypocrisy better or worse than racism? Are we seeing some of that 'moral supremacy' posturing rumored to exist in certain groups?
02-22-2017 , 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie
So is hypocrisy better or worse than racism? Are we seeing some of that 'moral supremacy' posturing rumored to exist in certain groups?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Quote:
Whataboutism is a term describing a propaganda technique used by the Soviet Union in its dealings with the Western world during the Cold War. When criticisms were levelled at the Soviet Union, the response would be "What about..." followed by the naming of an event in the Western world.[1][2] It represents a case of tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy),[3] a logical fallacy which attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position, without directly refuting or disproving the opponent's initial argument.

The term describing the technique was popularized in 2008 by Edward Lucas in an article for The Economist. Lucas said that this tactic is observed in the politics of modern Russia, along with this being evidence of a resurgence of Cold War and Soviet-era mentality within Russia's leadership.[1]
02-22-2017 , 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
And beyond all that, it is really really a problem that white people have that they think because they have, for example, a close black friend that they are all of a sudden immune from saying or doing racist things. This is absolutely not the case. Being racist is a natural extension of being born and raised in the United States, a white supremacist society, so what someone should do is reflect on that fact rather than be defensive when people tell them racism is a big problem in the United States.
what about the black person who is the close friend and also feels that racism isn't a big problem in the US? is he also racist?
02-22-2017 , 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by einbert
Well, Trump has hired Steve Bannon as his White House Chief Strategist. He retweets white nationalist memes all the time, as do his top people Conway, Miller, and others. This piece may be eye-opening for you on the duality of the whole thing, but if you think about it it's really not that complicated. Trump and Bannon support a kind of apartheid state in the United States--a return to Jim Crow disenfranchisement through voter suppression and draconian immigration enforcement--and Netanyahu of Israel supports a similar apartheid state against Palestinians. They have common interests in mind at all times.

How Steve Bannon and Breitbart News Can Be Pro-Israel and Anti-Semitic at the Same Time
http://forward.com/news/israel/35440...-semitic-at-t/


Obama was anti-semitic? Give me a break, I don't even think people on the right believe claims that stupid.
Obama is clearly anti Semitic in my opinion. Read the article. He's friends with people who have ties to Hamas. He could be considered the biggest supporter of terrorism given the Iran nuclear deal. 150 billion dollars worth of support to a country that chants death to the US and Israel. His non veto of the racist UN resolution. Etc etc.
02-22-2017 , 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky
what about the black person who is the close friend and also feels that racism isn't a big problem in the US? is he also racist?
Possibly, the point is having a friend doesn't clear you of being racist against your friends race. Not doing or saying racist things about your friend's race does.
02-22-2017 , 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky
what about the black person who is the close friend and also feels that racism isn't a big problem in the US? is he also racist?
I am not surprised when anyone doesn't notice racism.

It's more to it than that, Why wouldn't I stand by my friends if they did declare racism happening? If another friends say well no it's not. Fine they don't have to do anything even if they are wrong and would want to do anything when racism is happening. I can surely investigate racism for myself thoroughly for a friend.

What are we arguing about? It's about friendship and connection, So it's not political unless friendship is some how voted upon by others. And when people find the racism and investigate it, it does appear where it disappears is where genuine friendships have form instead of stereotypical or narrative-asserted connections.

I vote stand with friends and investigate racism with them too.
02-22-2017 , 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo
Possibly, the point is having a friend doesn't clear you of being racist against your friends race. Not doing or saying racist things about your friend's race does.
is that what einbert was saying? i thought he was saying you are racist if you even suggest the problem is not as big as he thinks it is. that made me curious how he feels about black people with a similar opinion.

      
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