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08-01-2017 , 06:47 PM
Ok, I mean, you obviously have the support and the numbers by these polls you are bringing up. What's the holdup?

I/you/we/the united States of America all want it. What's the issue? You tell me since it's so easy.

Spoiler:
It's nothing close to easy. Which is why it's not addressed.
08-01-2017 , 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466
Ok, I mean, you obviously have the support and the numbers by these polls you are bringing up. What's the holdup?

I/you/we/the united States of America all want it. What's the issue? You tell me since it's so easy.

Spoiler:
It's nothing close to easy. Which is why it's not addressed.
One of my favorite subgenres on the internet is conservatives being so ****ing cloistered in their bubbles of agitprop that they accidentally make left wing arguments.
08-01-2017 , 07:07 PM
One of my favorites is the idiot leftist arguments of dumbing everything down to a simplistic argument like "Republicans don't want it". It's the same with all the idiot leftists arguments like "racism" or "greed". It's complete bull****.

The political will isn't there. It's not an easy thing to fix, if it was, it'd be fixed. If it wouldn't cost us anything, it'd be fixed.

The fact is it's going to cost a lot and people are unwilling to go along with it. People like batair say the polling numbers are there. I say it's more complicated than that or we wouldn't be having this argument.

Again. What the **** is so hard to understand here?
08-01-2017 , 07:13 PM
It all comes down to the lefts feelings. You want to thump your chests and PROUDLY tell everyone you support healthcare for everyone! Everyone who opposed is a racist white republican!

When it comes down to answering questions like "what will it cost"? We get crickets.

Typical leftist ****ing bull****.
08-01-2017 , 07:14 PM
Wil it costs a lot now. We know we can spend less money and get better outcomes. Certain political groups lobby against this and they have lots of money. This is simple.
08-01-2017 , 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466
even though it seems cruel sometimes.
No just excuse for cruelty upon Americans, not even when convicted.
08-01-2017 , 07:20 PM
we usa folk (who, it just so happens, are better than euros/etc) don't want uhc

*bunch of polls showing the opposite*

doesn't matter, never gonna happen. y u no see that? END OF STORY. GOOD DAY. RAGE RAGE LEFTISTS CALLING WE RACISTS AGAIN!
08-01-2017 , 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonh
Wil it costs a lot now. We know we can spend less money and get better outcomes. Certain political groups lobby against this and they have lots of money. This is simple.
The highlighted is absurd. Again, if this was that simple, it'd be done.
08-01-2017 , 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466
The highlighted is absurd. Again, if this was that simple, it'd be done.
It is done. In multiple other countries. Hell your next door neighbor is doing it.
08-01-2017 , 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
I think our education system is fairly good on average, but pretty variable and underfunded in many areas. My wife is a college professor. I think we could do better and it would be a good thing for us economically, over the longer term.
This is simply wrong. We spend more per pupil than most - it is not a funding issue. As for college, let's not get into the rate of growth in tuition vis a vi inflation and costs for other goods. The amount we spend here is not the issue.

Quote:
We don't have universal healthcare, although expanding the number of people with health insurance was really the primary goal of the ACA and it was relatively successful in that regard. But, saying that we don't have universal healthcare is not the same as saying that we do not offer quality healthcare full stop, although by many metrics the healthcare system in the US functions worse than many European countries (and in a few areas, or for wealthier people, it probably functions better). In any case, actual universal access to some minimum level of healthcare is a worthy goal.
The only metric worthy of discussion is quality of care. Let us not forget that we do have universal coverage for those below the poverty line. We do not let people die in the streets, something your position seems to forget. That said, it really is the middle class that is getting screwed here - they don't qualify for subsidies, so they have care they can't afford to use, and of course the wealthy have all the access they could want. Not to mention that older people are highly subsidized and yet have more wealth than younger generations.

Also, our quality of care is remarkably better. Our cancer survivor rates are some of the best in world - topping Canada, the UK, and Finland. These are the most complex cases that do demonstrate our innovation in taking care of patients. The study chezlaw linked to the other day gave the UK high marks in "calling patients to remind them of their appointments". Sigh.


Quote:
Your sentence about Facebook, Google, and Tesla seems to be free association; it has nothing to do with education or healthcare. My main point was that emulating certain policy ideas from European countries, or adapting them for our own use, does not entail being culturally European. Whether or not we adopt or adapt such ideas should be a function of whether or not they would make us better off, rather than being some aesthetic judgement about European culture.
It doesn't have anything to do with healthcare (although our companies do provide insurance for thousands of employees), but it absolutely does have to do with our education system and ingenuity. To dismiss American innovation is to miss the point.
08-01-2017 , 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary F(r)iend
It is done. In multiple other countries. Hell your next door neighbor is doing it.
Canada, Finland, and the UK do not have better outcomes in cancer survivability:

https://www.cancer.org/content/dam/c...rd-edition.pdf

"When it comes to the U.S.ís net five-year survival rates 2005-2009 for stomach, colon, rectum, liver, lung, female breast, cervix, ovary, prostate, and leukemia, we outrank Canada on seven out of the ten types; we outrank the U.K. significantly on all ten, with massive differentials; we outrank Finland on seven out of ten."
08-01-2017 , 07:48 PM
You don't measure an education system by pointing to few highly successful people.
08-01-2017 , 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary F(r)iend
It is done. In multiple other countries. Hell your next door neighbor is doing it.
Oh ok, because from what I've read it's up to 12k a year for families and has doubled in the last decade, rising 1.6x faster than the average Canadian income.

Again, none of this is anywhere close to simple, yet all I'm getting is simple answers. Yeah, we know we pay a lot but we have tradeoffs for that. We get the best hospitals in the world. If we change it all then what happens? Do we still get the best care (if you can pay for it)? It's the same with the education system. Public sucks. Private is the best education in the planet at a ridiculous cost.

Should we just change it all up so liberals can feel good about it?!
08-01-2017 , 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466
One of my favorites is the idiot leftist arguments of dumbing everything down to a simplistic argument like "Republicans don't want it". It's the same with all the idiot leftists arguments like "racism" or "greed". It's complete bull****.

The political will isn't there. It's not an easy thing to fix, if it was, it'd be fixed. If it wouldn't cost us anything, it'd be fixed.

The fact is it's going to cost a lot and people are unwilling to go along with it. People like batair say the polling numbers are there. I say it's more complicated than that or we wouldn't be having this argument.

Again. What the **** is so hard to understand here?
If the richest nation ever to exist can't have healthcare for all but others can. We are doing it wrong and should figure out how to do it right.
08-01-2017 , 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466

Should we just change it all up so liberals can feel good about it?!
It's appears you have a low degree of education about emotions. Did you learn about feelings from talk radio by any chance?
08-01-2017 , 08:16 PM
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...nscript-241214

Quote:
President Donald Trump called his son-in-law a “good boy” while thanking Wall Street Journal editor-in-chief Gerard Baker for a positive editorial about Jared Kushner and said the leader of the Boy Scouts told him his jamboree speech was “the greatest speech ever made to them.”
08-01-2017 , 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
If the richest nation ever to exist can't have healthcare for all but others can. We are doing it wrong and should figure out how to do it right.
No, we are not "doing it wrong". YOUR OPINION is that we should cover everyone. That opinion is not shared by everyone.

Why can't we get past these simple steps? The United States has the best health care in the world. We have the best doctors doing doctor **** in the best hospitals on the planet. It is the same with our educational system. This is a fact.

BOTH OF THESE SYSTEMS ARE UNEQUAL. This is a fact.

Every single person reading this realizes this. The issue is what do we want to do about it? Can we create more coverage without hurting the quality of the system? If so, how and at what cost?

THAT is what are debating. YOU believe we should make it available to everyone. Not everyone else agrees with you due to the tradeoffs or cost.

How many times will we repeat ourselves?
08-01-2017 , 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie
It's appears you have a low degree of education about emotions. Did you learn about feelings from talk radio by any chance?
To be brutally honest, I have healthcare, and so does my entire family. I really shouldn't give a rats ass who else gets what. But I kind of do, and I think we should expand it if possible with reasonable costs. If it is unreasonable, then I wouldn't support it.

Is that sufficient?
08-01-2017 , 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
If the richest nation ever to exist can't have healthcare for all but others can. We are doing it wrong and should figure out how to do it right.
We do have healthcare for all. If you want to make simplistic statements, you'll have to accept simplistic answers.
08-01-2017 , 08:26 PM
Jiggy is correct.
08-01-2017 , 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JiggyMac
We do have healthcare for all. If you want to make simplistic statements, you'll have to accept simplistic answers.
GotchaMac gonna getcha.
08-01-2017 , 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466
To be brutally honest, I have healthcare, and so does my entire family. I really shouldn't give a rats ass who else gets what. But I kind of do, and I think we should expand it if possible with reasonable costs. If it is unreasonable, then I wouldn't support it.

Is that sufficient?
No. Why would I and the people trust what a trump supporter might estimate as reasonable?
08-01-2017 , 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466
No, we are not "doing it wrong". YOUR OPINION is that we should cover everyone. That opinion is not shared by everyone.

Why can't we get past these simple steps? The United States has the best health care in the world. We have the best doctors doing doctor **** in the best hospitals on the planet. It is the same with our educational system. This is a fact.
Of course it's my opinion.

Quote:
BOTH OF THESE SYSTEMS ARE UNEQUAL. This is a fact.
So is our military and you are ok with the government running it.
Quote:
Every single person reading this realizes this. The issue is what do we want to do about it? Can we create more coverage without hurting the quality of the system? If so, how and at what cost?

THAT is what are debating. YOU believe we should make it available to everyone. Not everyone else agrees with you due to the tradeoffs or cost.

How many times will we repeat ourselves?
You can barely keep up and keep track so I'd guess there will be a lot of repeating and ever changing goalpost, like normal.
08-01-2017 , 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie
No. Why would I and the people trust what a trump supporter might estimate as reasonable?
Then don't, and stop wasting our time.
08-01-2017 , 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by batair
Of course it's my opinion.


So is our military and you are ok with the government running it.

You can barely keep up and keep track so I'd guess there will be a lot of repeating and ever changing goalpost, like normal.
It's obvious to me I understand the problem much better than you do. I openly admit I don't know any of the details or economics behind it. That doesn't matter. What matters is philosophical in nature.

We pay a lot and we have the best health care system in the world. It is not available to everyone at all times. It's unfair and unequal. Where we differ is what we believe we should do about it. You want everyone to have everyrhjng. I don't.

      
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