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Old 07-11-2017, 03:37 PM   #8401
batair
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Re: President Trump

Like how the email also shows the Russians interfeared and tried to hack our election booths in support of trump. Not that that was not made clear by our IC or that most trump supporters will aknowlage it or care unless it was done to them.
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Old 07-11-2017, 03:37 PM   #8402
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by pokerodox View Post
I honestly don't know where I come down, though I suspect I'll come down as not caring. inb4, bias, blah blah.

I am thinking about it in terms of future actions. Do we want opposition research going forward to include investigating every connection a campaign has to foreign nationals? It's a very parochial way of thinking. You can't solicit advice from foreigners? Very non-cosmopolitan. Very non-liberal.

I vaguely remember something about Obama talking with Iran during a campaign, but I don't remember where I came down on it then. We should all be asking ourselves (myself included), do I just side with my party? What position did I take when my party did this, or when the other party did this?
You think it is illiberal to ban US campaigns from colluding with unfriendly foreign governments? Really? There are a lot of rules about what sources of money or other help campaigns can accept (this is why oppo research and fundraising is unusually done in conjunction with lawyers). Non-interference by foreign governments should be uncontroversial if you accept any kind of regulation here.

As for your partisan test I'll say this: if Obama or Clinton or any member of their campaign staff knowingly pursued oppo research provided to them by a foreign government - I support them being brought up on federal charges. I think not caring about this stuff is a mistake - conservatives should care about maintaining rule of law and checks and balances. Even if this meeting had no impact on the 2016 election (likely imo), the precedent set is important to future campaigns.
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Old 07-11-2017, 03:37 PM   #8403
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by JiggyMac View Post
Is that like "half-pregnant"? Either we are or we are not.
I disagree with this. If you mean formally at war, as in war has been declared, then no, we are not.

But it is worth noting that the United States has not formally declared war since World War II. I doubt you would try to argue that we were not at war in Vietnam or North Korea.

Furthermore, the whole "are we at war" sidetrack is a strawman anyway, as my original post never claimed we were. I said Russia was "hostile" which only means "unfriendly; antagonistic". This is objectively true.

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Listening to people is now illegal in this country. Do tell...
Unsuccessful attempts at crimes are themselves crimes in many cases; see attempted murder or conspiracy to commit anything.
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Old 07-11-2017, 03:42 PM   #8404
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by Original Position View Post

As for your partisan test I'll say this: if Obama or Clinton or any member of their campaign staff knowingly pursued oppo research provided to them by a foreign government - I support them being brought up on federal charges. I think not caring about this stuff is a mistake - conservatives should care about maintaining rule of law and checks and balances. Even if this meeting had no impact on the 2016 election (likely imo), the precedent set is important to future campaigns.

We know Hillary received funds from Saudi Arabia, Russia, and China. We can talk about Don Jr. after Hillary is behind bars.
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Old 07-11-2017, 03:43 PM   #8405
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by TiltedDonkey View Post
I disagree with this. If you mean formally at war, as in war has been declared, then no, we are not.

But it is worth noting that the United States has not formally declared war since World War II. I doubt you would try to argue that we were not at war in Vietnam or North Korea.

Furthermore, the whole "are we at war" sidetrack is a strawman anyway, as my original post never claimed we were. I said Russia was "hostile" which only means "unfriendly; antagonistic". This is objectively true.
I will say this - one of the primary reasons we are in hostile state with Russia is BECAUSE of Obama's feckless incompetence in foreign policy. Can't really blame Trump for that.
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Old 07-11-2017, 03:46 PM   #8406
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Re: President Trump

Watching Jiggy dance from post to post coming up with the most utterly idiotic defenses possible is just incredible entertainment. "If Russia's hostile it's only Obama's fault so this is all fine for Trump", hahahaha WHAT?
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Old 07-11-2017, 03:50 PM   #8407
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Re: President Trump

He must be new to earth.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:17 PM   #8408
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by well named View Post
Yes. It's a federal crime. The details that Jr. has already admitted to fulfill the requirements of the crime (edit: there's no "may have" here). Even if there's no actual dirt given. (cf. soliciting in the statute)
This is not a crime. What part is criminal?
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:18 PM   #8409
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by JiggyMac View Post
I will say this - one of the primary reasons we are in hostile state with Russia is BECAUSE of Obama's feckless incompetence in foreign policy. Can't really blame Trump for that.
+1

Hillary had a lot to do with this.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:22 PM   #8410
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by TiltedDonkey View Post
I disagree with this. If you mean formally at war, as in war has been declared, then no, we are not.

But it is worth noting that the United States has not formally declared war since World War II. I doubt you would try to argue that we were not at war in Vietnam or North Korea.

Furthermore, the whole "are we at war" sidetrack is a strawman anyway, as my original post never claimed we were. I said Russia was "hostile" which only means "unfriendly; antagonistic". This is objectively true.



Unsuccessful attempts at crimes are themselves crimes in many cases; see attempted murder or conspiracy to commit anything.
Good luck trying to find a law on the books that will apply to what Don did.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:22 PM   #8411
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
Watching Jiggy dance from post to post coming up with the most utterly idiotic defenses possible is just incredible entertainment. "If Russia's hostile it's only Obama's fault so this is all fine for Trump", hahahaha WHAT?
I understand you don't pay much attention to world politics. It's ok - I wouldn't expect you to. Apparently you've forgotten - red lines, reset buttons, Uranium sales, Crimea ****-ups, Yemen bombings, Gitmo still open, the list goes on and on.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:24 PM   #8412
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by JiggyMac View Post
Yeah, they claimed to have knowledge of sources. Good thing Don Jr. came to their rescue today to let everyone see their emails.


The Clinton Method of handling information:
1) bleach-bit emails
2) hammer phone to pieces
3) deny

The Trump method:

1) Tweet emails for transparency
+1
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:25 PM   #8413
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Re: President Trump

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Good luck trying to find a law on the books that will apply to what Don did.
Interesting article on where the term "enemy" comes from:
https://www.justsecurity.org/39244/met-enemy-is/

It does dovetail into the "Treason" issue early. While I may not have been clear - I think CNN and the Russia conspiracy is treason with a small 't', as in they are acting against the interests of this country. Not necessarily giving aid and comfort to declared enemies. You can tell by Putin's reactions at the G20 that even he is amused by the whole situation.

If Russia did really want to destabilize the US, what better way then to continually feed the media nuggets of info to keep the media on a "Russian interfered" story so that absolutely nothing gets done. We are no longer the Cold War 'enemies' we once were.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:26 PM   #8414
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Re: President Trump

@ WN, OP and TD (and anyone interested), so, as WN and I pointed out, the law does not require the foreign national be hostile or connected to a government. Soliciting something of value (advice or information?) from your Canadian friend would violate the law. Thus, we have to look at past practices (or our own sense of morals???) for what is wrong here.

Now, let's say he did solicit information. Are you saying it's wrong to receive or solicit information from someone connected or purporting to be connected to a hostile government for campaign purposes?

Re "colluding," that makes it sound like something else, like tampering with voting machines. You can still call it colluding, but it's colluding to receive damaging information about your opponent.

I want more information about past practices, and the last 20 times this law was enforced. I will do a quick search for the fact patter I think I remember re Iran. I could be wrong on that.

Last edited by pokerodox; 07-11-2017 at 04:28 PM. Reason: Edit: added ? on information
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:27 PM   #8415
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
This is not a crime. What part is criminal?
From the statute I linked:

Quote:
(b)Contributions and donations by foreign nationals in connection with elections. A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any Federal, State, or local election.

(g)Solicitation, acceptance, or receipt of contributions and donations from foreign nationals. No person shall knowingly solicit, accept, or receive from a foreign national any contribution or donation prohibited by paragraphs (b) through (d) of this section.
So, the part where you show up to a meeting (soliciting) with a foreign national in the hopes of gaining oppo research (a thing of value) is already a crime. If they provide said research, that is also a crime. At the moment, we only know that the solicitation occurred. It is not a defense that Goldstone sent the first email:

Quote:
(6)Solicit has the same meaning as in 11 CFR 300.2(m).

(m)To solicit. For the purposes of part 300, to solicit means to ask, request, or recommend, explicitly or implicitly, that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value. A solicitation is an oral or written communication that, construed as reasonably understood in the context in which it is made, contains a clear message asking, requesting, or recommending that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value. A solicitation may be made directly or indirectly. The context includes the conduct of persons involved in the communication. A solicitation does not include mere statements of political support or mere guidance as to the applicability of a particular law or regulation.
When DJT showed up at the meeting he was asking for that information, quite clearly. That was the advertised purpose of the meeting. You're not allowed to show up and ask them to provide what they promised just because they reached out to you.

Obviously the crime is more severe if the Russian government actually provided something. That has yet to be established.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:28 PM   #8416
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by JiggyMac View Post
I understand you don't pay much attention to world politics. It's ok - I wouldn't expect you to. Apparently you've forgotten - red lines, reset buttons, Uranium sales, Crimea ****-ups, Yemen bombings, Gitmo still open, the list goes on and on.
Goofyballer is like Michael Moore. He only pursues his agenda and tells only half truths. Let him continue to be on the wrong side of history.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:31 PM   #8417
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by JiggyMac View Post
The only thing in that email from the publicist (who's job it is to LIE to Trump Jr. to get the meeting) is that they may have information on HILLARY'S dealings with Russia.

So....

1) Trump Jr. did not solicit anything.
2) Trump Jr. did not receive anything of value.

Also note, Trump Jr. did not act on anything in the meeting because there was nothing to act upon. Calling this a nothingburger is an insult to nothingburgers.
Julian Assange announced that he had "emails related to Hilary Clinton" just 3 days after the Trump Jr. meeting with a Russian government agent.

The DNC emails were the information being offered. The Russians had been sitting on the emails since April, when they were kicked out of the DNC network. DCleaks.com was registered April 19th, but didn't launch until June. Its Twitter account was started the day before the Trump Jr. Meeting.

So Russia definitely had damaging information. They held onto this information until they met with the Trump campaign and DT, Jr. Then they released the information. It sure seems like they got something they wanted in that meeting.

Last edited by 13ball; 07-11-2017 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:33 PM   #8418
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by JiggyMac View Post
We know Hillary received funds from Saudi Arabia, Russia, and China. We can talk about Don Jr. after Hillary is behind bars.
No one gives a **** about Hillary.

No one gives a **** about Don Jr. either except where he implicates Don Sr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JiggyMac View Post
I will say this - one of the primary reasons we are in hostile state with Russia is BECAUSE of Obama's feckless incompetence in foreign policy. Can't really blame Trump for that.
Even if I grant you this, it doesn't matter why we are in a hostile state with Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Good luck trying to find a law on the books that will apply to what Don did.
I mean, it looks like well named might have found one but I am no expert on the law and to be honest I don't really care. As conservatives are fond of saying these days, impeachment is a political process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JiggyMac View Post
I understand you don't pay much attention to world politics. It's ok - I wouldn't expect you to. Apparently you've forgotten - red lines, reset buttons, Uranium sales, Crimea ****-ups, Yemen bombings, Gitmo still open, the list goes on and on.
What, dude, like I'll just grant you for the sake of argument that Obama was the worst president ever. It doesn't matter. It's not relevant to the conversation we are having here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerodox View Post
@ WN, OP and TD (and anyone interested), so, as WN and I pointed out, the law does not require the foreign national be hostile or connected to a government. Soliciting something of value (advice or information?) from your Canadian friend would violate the law. Thus, we have to look at past practices (or our own sense of morals???) for what is wrong here.

Now, let's say he did solicit information. Are you saying it's wrong to receive or solicit information from someone connected or purporting to be connected to a hostile government for campaign purposes?

Re "colluding," that makes it sound like something else, like tampering with voting machines. You can still call it colluding, but it's colluding to receive damaging information about your opponent.

I want more information about past practices, and the last 20 times this law was enforced. I will do a quick search for the fact patter I think I remember re Iran. I could be wrong on that.
While I think discussions about the letter and enforcement of specific laws are interesting, it isn't what I'm talking about. I haven't even read the law that well named linked.

Like, I think that what Don Jr. did was wrong, in a common sense way that hiring your Canadian friend is not. But really I don't give one **** about Don Jr. anyway unless Don Sr. is implicated.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:34 PM   #8419
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by well named View Post

When DJT showed up at the meeting he was asking for that information, quite clearly. That was the advertised purpose of the meeting. You're not allowed to show up and ask them to provide what they promised just because they reached out to you.
DJT did not solicit the meeting, the meeting was solicited to him.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:34 PM   #8420
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Re: President Trump

The only people who care about this Russian stuff is the lying media and the anti-American left. Everyday Americans don't care about this. They want to focus on real issues.

Putting this into context..If Hillary Clinton was doing shady things with the Russians then it makes sense to find out what she is up to.

Yall realize that Donald Trump JR is NOT in the administration..LOL!!

Keep up the fight though...Bwahahahaha!!
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:35 PM   #8421
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by TiltedDonkey View Post
Yes. Specifically someone connected to a hostile foreign government, not just a foreigner.
Thank you. Just wanted to make sure this is another one of the those stories we are forced to hear about, but will blow over with nothing proven or done about it.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:36 PM   #8422
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by 13ball View Post
J
So Russia definitely had damaging information. They held onto this information until they met with the Trump campaign and DT, Jr. Then they released the information. It sure seems like they got something they wanted in that meeting.
Did you even read the email? The "damaging information" was Hillary colluding with Russia. It had nothing to do with the emails Assange got from Seth Rich.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...acked-russians
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:36 PM   #8423
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Putting this into context..If Hillary Clinton was doing shady things with the Russians then it makes sense to find out what she is up to.

Yall realize that Donald Trump JR is NOT in the administration..LOL!!
In which mongidig, who last night thought that gay marriage was only legal in 3 states, writes these two sentences seeing no conflict whatsoever between them
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:37 PM   #8424
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Re: President Trump

There was no solicitation involved. End of story.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:39 PM   #8425
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by bahbahmickey View Post
Thank you. Just wanted to make sure this is another one of the those stories we are forced to hear about, but will blow over with nothing proven or done about it.
I mean, it is proven. Donald Jr. released the emails we're talking about himself.

Re: done about it, you may be right, but I'm not really sure how that makes it not a story.
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