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Old 06-02-2017, 09:49 PM   #5901
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Re: President Trump

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Even granting your premise, that would just mean their are violent racists on both sides. So why go far right to the violent racists on one side?
Oooh, ooh, I have an idea!
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Old 06-02-2017, 09:50 PM   #5902
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Re: President Trump

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The gender wage Gap is not real, and legitimate evidence tells us so. Believe what you wish. Good luck.
[citation needed]
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Old 06-02-2017, 09:53 PM   #5903
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
A couple posts on "regulations" that are relevant to any discussion about them:
I'd agree that when discussing president trump it's reasonable to focus on the specific regulations but generally it is very useful to be able to generalise about regulations (and pretty much anything). There are good and bad aspects to regulations to consider as well as good and bad points about specific regulations.

I don't agree at all that we should avoid considering bad aspects of regulations (or most things) because of some fear of conceding political points - that's a huge topic in itself though.
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Old 06-02-2017, 09:56 PM   #5904
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
Well since I know you don't want to impart false wisdom to your daughter, let me correct you on the facts there:
I will not impart false information, which is exactly what you are doing. I've looked into it. I live in a household with 2 females. I have every single incentive to get to the bottom of this wage Gap myth and I have every incentive to believe it's true. It is not true. It is a blatant, total lie and as I've stated previously the statement that changed my entire political view.

It's a lie. It's not true. If I believed it was true I would immediately change what I'm doing in terms of schooling. If I believed women would make 23% less than men, I would NOT be spending the amount of money I currently am on her education. Why would I bother if I knew she would never be paid equally? Only a fool would throw away their money on something they can't change.
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Old 06-02-2017, 09:56 PM   #5905
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by chezlaw View Post
I'd agree that when discussing president trump it's reasonable to focus on the specific regulations but generally it is very useful to be able to generalise about regulations (and pretty much anything). There are good and bad aspects to regulations to consider as well as good and bad points about specific regulations.

I don't agree at all that we should avoid considering bad aspects of regulations (or most things) because of some fear of conceding political points - that's a huge topic in itself though.
That's only because you like pushing right-wing, anti-intellectual talking points. It has no basis in empirical analysis of reality.
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Old 06-02-2017, 09:57 PM   #5906
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
I will not impart false information, which is exactly what you are doing. I've looked into it. I live in a household with 2 females. I have every single incentive to get to the bottom of this wage Gap myth and I have every incentive to believe it's true. It is not true. It is a blatant, total lie and as I've stated previously the statement that changed my entire political view.

It's a lie. It's not true. If I believed it was true I would immediately change what I'm doing in terms of schooling. If I believed women would make 23% less than men, I would NOT be spending the amount of money I currently am on her education. Why would I bother if I knew she would never be paid equally? Only a fool would throw away their money on something they can't change.
Because you can see from the graph that without an education she would be even more ****ed?
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:00 PM   #5907
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
That's only because you like pushing right-wing, anti-intellectual talking points. It has no basis in empirical analysis of reality.
No I just think we should try to understand things and that abstraction generally helps. Avoiding understanding/discussion because of some fear of conceding points is imo far more of a handicap than anything else - it's also highly anti-intellectual.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:01 PM   #5908
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Re: President Trump

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Because you can see from the graph that without an education she would be even more ****ed?
Lol, no. Who thinks like this? You think I'd want her to become a surgeon who makes 23% less because that's better than being a truck driver making 23% less?

The logic behind your thinking is comical. If what you were saying is true I'd just let her go to any school and not bother.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:01 PM   #5909
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Re: President Trump

The truth is that "regulation" is a nonsense abstract concept and you can only properly analyze it when talking about some actual regulation that can actually be analyzed. You probably know this but you also know that keeping it abstract allows you to keep it stupid and keeping it stupid allows you to keep it right-wing.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:02 PM   #5910
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
Lol, no. Who thinks like this? You think I'd want her to become a surgeon who makes 23% less because that's better than being a truck driver making 23% less?

The logic behind your thinking is comical. If what you were saying is true I'd just let her go to any school and not bother.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:09 PM   #5911
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
Your graph doesn't mean anything. It's complete nonsense and paints a picture that is simply untrue. You are literally trying to sell a lie and the harder you try to sell it the worse you make yourself look.

Women are NOT paid less than men. There is a very valid argument that could be made stating "there is a 5-7% Gap we can not account for", which I can respectfully agree is a valid concern, but needs to be studied more.

You keep pushing that lie. Please, I wish you would. I love it, because it makes people concerned and they will look into it themselves and see it's totally incorrect. Lol at women making 77 cents on the dollar. Only a fool could believe that.

Let me repeat that : only a total and complete fool could believe that women make 77% of what men do in the same jobs with the same experience. I would recommend you not say this in front of educated people, as it will make you look very, very foolish.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:09 PM   #5912
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Re: President Trump

In case you can't read it, the chart clearly shows that the gender wage gap is far worse for people not at the upper income levels.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:10 PM   #5913
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
The truth is that "regulation" is a nonsense abstract concept and you can only properly analyze it when talking about some actual regulation that can actually be analyzed. You probably know this but you also know that keeping it abstract allows you to keep it stupid and keeping it stupid allows you to keep it right-wing.
No. Avoiding issues because of some fear of conceding point is an aide to those who want to keep it dumbed down. That makes it easy for those on the right who wish to keep thinking and understanding out of politics.

We can argue for regulation as a good thing because it is a good thing to have regulations. We do not have to restrict ourselves to discussing particular regulations. We van also discuss the aims and aspects of regulations that we wish to see or not.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:10 PM   #5914
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Re: President Trump

The truth is you are just trying to delegitimize real research into oppression that affects your daughter directly. The truth is you don't want to know, you just want to believe your naive narrative of reality. But passing along lies to your daughter isn't going to help her at all in life--you should know that.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:12 PM   #5915
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No. Avoiding issues because of some fear of conceding point is an aide to those who want to keep it dumbed down. That makes it easy for those on the right who wish to keep thinking and understanding out of politics.
I never did that though! You are a similar right-wing snake, trying to make it look like I said things that I never came close to saying. People should be very cautious of anything that you say and treat it with an incredible deal of skepticism. You are a liar and a charlatan.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:17 PM   #5916
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Re: President Trump

The point being addressed was

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Talking about regulations in the abstract is ~always stupid and concedes points to conservatives that should not be conceded.
Issues including abstractions should be taken on merit and not with respect to concern of conceding points.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:18 PM   #5917
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
The truth is you are just trying to delegitimize real research into oppression that affects your daughter directly. The truth is you don't want to know, you just want to believe your naive narrative of reality. But passing along lies to your daughter isn't going to help her at all in life--you should know that.
I've already addressed this. I'm not covering a single thing up and I actively researched it because I was so concerned. I was alarmed when I read it and I read as much about it as I could find.

It is much, much better to pass along information and advice that is actually true than untrue. What would be better, telling her the whole world is against her and she will always be paid less than she deserves because she has a vagina, or that she will be treated equally and paid equally if she puts in the same effort and output as her male counterparts?

Do you think about these things in the least bit, or do you just spew leftist nonsense?
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:19 PM   #5918
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
I've already addressed this. I'm not covering a single thing up and I actively researched it because I was so concerned. I was alarmed when I read it and I read as much about it as I could find.

It is much, much better to pass along information and advice that is actually true than untrue. What would be better, telling her the whole world is against her and she will always be paid less than she deserves because she has a vagina, or that she will be treated equally and paid equally if she puts in the same effort and output as her male counterparts?

Do you think about these things in the least bit, or do you just spew leftist nonsense?
You still haven't produced the slightest shred of evidence that there is no gender wage gap.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:22 PM   #5919
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Re: President Trump

You still haven't produced the slightest shred of evidence that there is no gender wage gap.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:24 PM   #5920
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Re: President Trump

Einbert, the 23% number is real but that is likely because of traditional gender roles in child-rearing that the government can't control. Wil is doing his part in helping raise his child so his wife can continue her career, so what more do you want from him? He acknowledges there is a 5-7% gap is real and should be addressed.

Wil, since you agree that the 5-7% gap is real, why are you so mad at the liberals who you believe are citing the wrong number rather than the right which are saying it doesn't exist? You yourself kept saying the problem doesn't exist, then saying you end up saying you respectfully agree that 5-7% is probably the real discrimination. That is still alot!

Seems to me the right has obfuscated the issue so that if someone feels mislead by the 78% number then that means they should go with the right. But that does not follow logically. You seem to come to the correct conclusion, maybe a little right of center at most, but then spaz out to going far right for some reason. Maybe its because you get mad from arguing with liberals on this board? Maybe you should go argue on some right-wing boards where they are clearly wrong the other way to self-correct?

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Old 06-02-2017, 10:26 PM   #5921
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Re: President Trump

I still believe it's much much closer to that 23%. I'm still open to evidence proving me wrong.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:27 PM   #5922
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Let me repeat that : only a total and complete fool could believe that women make 77% of what men do in the same jobs with the same experience. I would recommend you not say this in front of educated people, as it will make you look very, very foolish.
I didn't collect the data, but yes that is the gap at certain income levels. You still haven't produced a shred of evidence to show that this is wrong.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:36 PM   #5923
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by Pwn_Master View Post
Einbert, the 23% number is real but that is likely because of traditional gender roles in child-rearing that the government can't control. Wil is doing his part in helping raise his child so his wife can continue his career, so what more do you want from him? He acknowledges there is a 5-7% gap is real and should be addresses.
I thank you for your honesty.
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Wil, since you agree that the 5-7% gap is real, why are you so mad at the liberals who you believe are citing the wrong number rather than the right which are saying it doesn't exist?
Because it's an inflated number that creates resentment and anger. There is no reason to lie about it. I don't believe in lying and I don't like it being used politically.

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You yourself kept saying the problem doesn't exist, then saying you end up saying you respectfully agree that 5-7% is probably the real discrimination. That is still alot
I didn't say it was the correct number. I said it should be looked into, and I suspect it's probably not true. Why would you hire a man when you can get a woman to do the job for 7% less, doing the same work? I just hired a male painter to paint a few rooms in my house, I sure as hell would have paid a female 7% less for the same work! Who wouldn't?!


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Seems to me the right has obfuscated the issue so that if someone feels mislead by the 78% number then that means they should go with the right. But that does not follow logically.
No one is obfuscating anything. We are all feminists. We all care about females because we all have mothers or sisters or daughters. Of COURSE I want women to make the same money, I live with two women! I would be outraged if my wife was paid 23% less because she's a female!

She's NOT underpaid. She could actually make more money, right now, but we as a family decided not to pursue it. Women make different life choices than men, and I know that is the case because I've seen it myself, and was the person who mostly supported that decision to NOT pursue more income so our family dynamic wouldn't be at risk. Do you not think I want more money? Of course I do!

This is just common sense. Women can be whatever they wish and they will be almost assuredly paid accordingly. I simply don't believe they should be paid MORE than men of equal backgrounds. I am more than willing to make my own life more difficult to make more money. I do not want that for my wife, and will suffer personally to accomplish that.

What is so hard to understand about how this all works?
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Old 06-02-2017, 11:08 PM   #5924
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Re: President Trump

First, the 78% number is real even if you feel mislead by it. The government can't fix it, but it still valid to cite it so that us men can be more considerate towards our partners and their careers. Don't have to do anything about it if the wife prefers you working more, but is valuable to get the number out there and be aware of.

Second, you don't believe that the possibility of having and raising a child and all the disruptions that would cause in work could be considered by employers? Especially for a small business.... I need to keep Bob happy, but Sally will probably leave in a few years anyway so whatever. My boss is a women and she mentions it! Actively tries to make sure not to discriminate based on it, but definitely crosses her mind.

Finally, what the hell kind of world do you think we would enter where women would be paid MORE for the same work? That is not how anti-discrimination laws work. Did you know that Obama already passed the equal pay for equal work law? It was so horrible that you didn't even notice.....

Regarding lying, I don't see how you can say that is what is making you so angry and then cheer on President Trump so loudly. It doesn't pass the smell test.
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Old 06-02-2017, 11:23 PM   #5925
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by Pwn_Master View Post
First, the 78% number is real even if you feel mislead by it. The government can't fix it, but it still valid to cite it so that us men can be more considerate towards our partners and their careers. Don't have to do anything about it if the wife prefers you working more, but is valuable to get the number out there and be aware of..
It's misleading, and that's my point. It paints a very different picture than reality.

Quote:
Second, you don't believe that the possibility of having and raising a child and all the disruptions that would cause in work could be considered by employers? Especially for a small business.... I need to keep Bob happy, but Sally will probably leave in a few years anyway so whatever. My boss is a women and she mentions it! Actively tries to make sure not to discriminate based on it, but definitely crosses her mind.
I agree, absolutely. Hiring a woman in her early thirties or late twenties is a risk due to family obligations. Happens all the time, and it might be a source of discrimination. It should be looked into. That being said, you can only go by what's in front of you. If you have the best candidate in front of you and she's a 31 year old female, you hire her, almost always.

Quote:
Finally, what the hell kind of world do you think we would enter where women would be paid MORE for the same work? That is not how anti-discrimination laws work. Did you know that Obama already passed the equal pay for equal work law? It was so horrible that you didn't even notice.....
People are paid differently due to many different circumstances. Some people are always available and always on call and are completely dedicated and devoted to their companies. Should they be compensated equally than the person who works 9-5 and doesn't pick up the phone when called outside of office hours? Of course not. There are real differences between the way some men and some women are willing to work. They are compensated accordingly. I know that is the case at every company I've ever worked at. Do you not agree?

Women tend to make less money because they have, in general, different priorities. This is not the case in all examples, obviously. I guarantee you that if they did a study including only women that have never been married and no children and compared them to men in the same situations that gap dissapears.

Children are the single biggest detriment on female earning potential. I know this is absolutely the case in my family and just the opportunity cost will be way over a million dollars in our lifetime earnings. You pay a HUGE, HUGE price to have children, and females, unfortunately, shoulder almost all of that burden.


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Regarding lying, I don't see how you can say that is what is making you so angry and then cheer on President Trump so loudly. It doesn't pass the smell test.
Not all lies are the same. The gender wage Gap is a huge, huge lie. Same with global warming (admittedly harder to be sure of). Literally the entire leftist agenda is based on lies. Lies so big they shape public opinion and cause serious issues in society, which result in anger and resentment.

Do you disagree with that? For example, if you believe that minorities in this country are systemically discriminated against, something like the shooting in Dallas last year may be viewed in a completely different light than if you don't believe in it. It really means something.

Your thoughts?

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