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Old 05-14-2017, 02:48 PM   #5151
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by Abbaddabba View Post
You really think it requires a psychological derangement to think that people aren't all created equal? There're a lot of different interpretation of complicated question, and people are obviously not inclined to volunteer their opinions on something so politically unpopular so we have no choice but to try and infer what we can from the policies that they throw their weight behind.

If someone did have grandiose delusions of race science, what do you think it would look like politically? They wouldn't be speaking their mind openly. But they probably would be passionately anti immigration and argue to reduce spending on the underclass who they see as being a waste of resources. Or better yet, lie to them, promise them the world, and then pass legislation completely contrary to their campaign promises.
In other words, the thesis of Charles Murray's books.
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Old 05-14-2017, 03:41 PM   #5152
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Re: President Trump

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This might have been a bad example. Racism and religious beliefs are two different things. I don't think you have a right to be racist but you do have a right to relgious freedom. Good point here
You absolutely have the right to be racist, or more specifically to have racist beliefs. However, you do not have the right to discriminate people based on those beliefs. Can you see a parallel here?
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:35 PM   #5153
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Re: President Trump

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You absolutely have the right to be racist, or more specifically to have racist beliefs. However, you do not have the right to discriminate people based on those beliefs. Can you see a parallel here?
I think it should be fine if businesses do. Its their business, let the free market punish them.

When there are no options I can see how the government should step in.

There is a line that shouldn't be crossed and we should not be forcing people to accept things. Adding more and more to that list as time goes by makes things worse.

I dont think you'd be singing the same tune 50 years ago when it came to gay marriage. I've supported it before it was popular, I think it should have been recognized by the state and leave the religious people out of it, allow them to do what they wish.

We have no right to force them to do anything. If they want to to hurt their own business, let them.

I find it hypocritical that people on the left are outraged by the handful of businesses not wanting to serve gays but are totally fine with something like sanctuary cities.

Last edited by wil318466; 05-14-2017 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:40 PM   #5154
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Re: President Trump

The sanctuary city concept simply exists so that we don not have a Gestapo-style roundup of non-violent people, and so those people will not be afraid to cooperate with the police when it comes to relaying information about other violent offenses.
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:03 PM   #5155
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Re: President Trump

Looks like the zionists finally got to trump. I'm off the Trump train!
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:38 PM   #5156
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Re: President Trump

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The sanctuary city concept simply exists so that we don not have a Gestapo-style roundup of non-violent people, and so those people will not be afraid to cooperate with the police when it comes to relaying information about other violent offenses.
Yes, you are supporting people who have broken laws.

Whether you believe it is acceptable or not isn't in question.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:56 PM   #5157
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Re: President Trump

Just when I thought wil was gonna go a whole three posts without sounding totally ignorant and ridiculous.

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I think it should be fine if businesses do. Its their business, let the free market punish them.

When there are no options I can see how the government should step in.

There is a line that shouldn't be crossed and we should not be forcing people to accept things. Adding more and more to that list as time goes by makes things worse.

I dont think you'd be singing the same tune 50 years ago when it came to gay marriage. I've supported it before it was popular, I think it should have been recognized by the state and leave the religious people out of it, allow them to do what they wish.

We have no right to force them to do anything. If they want to to hurt their own business, let them.

I find it hypocritical that people on the left are outraged by the handful of businesses not wanting to serve gays but are totally fine with something like sanctuary cities.
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:42 PM   #5158
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Re: President Trump

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If you can convince a person that a certain policy leads to needless suffering then it would take a psychologically deranged person to not care at all about that. All else being equal the vast majority of people would vote for less suffering.
And yet anywhere you go in the world you'll find that people spend money on luxuries knowing full well that it could have gone a lot further for people who're struggling to get by. People prioritize their own self interest above the greater good.. it's just a matter of to what extent.

But we all still want to FEEL like good people, so many who've rolled high in life start to begrudge poor people as being lazy dirt bags or maybe even genetically deficient humans who deserve what they have. Like the donald, who's publicly said laziness is an inherent trait of blacks. Or the general disdain he's shown for the working class in general (whites included) over the course of his life.

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This isn't to say that there aren't a bunch of irrational things that can get in the way of people changing their minds about something. (fear, ego, tribalism etc)

I also think that you are maybe arguing against something other than what I was objecting to. To suggest that there is an evil tail wagging the whole dog is different than suggesting all republicans are scumbags.
First, I wouldn't call them scumbags, and second - I don't think there's a cohesive world view shared between the party as a whole. There're just a bunch of individuals with varying degrees of elitest attitudes boiling under the surface, which shapes their policy preferences.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:03 AM   #5159
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Re: President Trump

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And yet anywhere you go in the world you'll find that people spend money on luxuries knowing full well that it could have gone a lot further for people who're struggling to get by. People prioritize their own self interest above the greater good.. it's just a matter of to what extent.

But we all still want to FEEL like good people, so many who've rolled high in life start to begrudge poor people as being lazy dirt bags or maybe even genetically deficient humans who deserve what they have. Like the donald, who's publicly said laziness is an inherent trait of blacks. Or the general disdain he's shown for the working class in general (whites included) over the course of his life.



First, I wouldn't call them scumbags, and second - I don't think there's a cohesive world view shared between the party as a whole. There're just a bunch of individuals with varying degrees of elitest attitudes boiling under the surface, which shapes their policy preferences.
I don't think there is much disagreement here. I understand cognitive dissonance is powerful.

This conversation started in response to someone calling republicans scumbags. I just don't think calling one side good and the other side evil makes much sense and it also kills any chance of having a productive discussion.
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Old 05-15-2017, 03:39 AM   #5160
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Re: President Trump

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I dont think you'd be singing the same tune 50 years ago when it came to gay marriage. I've supported it before it was popular, I think it should have been recognized by the state and leave the religious people out of it, allow them to do what they wish.
Slight detour, but I don't think I've ever been more proud of my country than in 2001, when we were the first nation to legalize same-sex marriages. The political party that fought the hardest for this and other progressive rights (euthanasia for instance) was established in 1966 and is the party I support. So yeah, I'm pretty sure I would have been pro same-sex rights 50 years ago.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:34 AM   #5161
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by darksideofthewal View Post
Slight detour, but I don't think I've ever been more proud of my country than in 2001, when we were the first nation to legalize same-sex marriages. The political party that fought the hardest for this and other progressive rights (euthanasia for instance) was established in 1966 and is the party I support. So yeah, I'm pretty sure I would have been pro same-sex rights 50 years ago.
It's very easy to think this. This is almost assuredly not the case for almost everyone.

Look up public support for gay marriage over the years. It's ride was dramatic but it started very low.

Are you one of those people who believe you would have resisted the Nazis?

Last edited by wil318466; 05-15-2017 at 04:52 AM.
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Old 05-15-2017, 09:56 AM   #5162
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Re: President Trump

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Are you one of those people who believe you would have resisted the Nazis?
Hitler got 37% of the vote in 1932; same as Trump's approval rating.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:00 PM   #5163
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by TheMadcap View Post
I don't think there is much disagreement here. I understand cognitive dissonance is powerful.

This conversation started in response to someone calling republicans scumbags. I just don't think calling one side good and the other side evil makes much sense and it also kills any chance of having a productive discussion.
The term you originally used was "moral failure", and if you're not going to use moral failure to describe an agenda defined by devaluing peoples lives to the benefit of a tiny minority, then when would it be appropriate to use that term?

If a leader saw himself as some kind of king who was of a divine bloodline and he chose to spend the wealth of society on over the top indulgences, you could say the same thing. It's not a moral failing - we just differ in our interpretation of the science!


I don't think it's fair to attribute this attitude to all republicans, but that is the sentiment you get from an honest reading of donalds life and it's one that's shared by at least a few republicans at high levels. Of course there's always plausible deniability for all the things trump has done, but you don't have to prove these things beyond a shadow of a doubt to recognize the likely truth of it.

Realistically a lot of his base is white people who are of the same opinion. And the minorities who hate him are seeing it ust as clearly, and that's why his approval rating is in the dumps for basically all non-whites.

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Old 05-15-2017, 04:08 PM   #5164
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by wil318466 View Post
I think it should be fine if businesses do. Its their business, let the free market punish them.

When there are no options I can see how the government should step in.

There is a line that shouldn't be crossed and we should not be forcing people to accept things. Adding more and more to that list as time goes by makes things worse.

I dont think you'd be singing the same tune 50 years ago when it came to gay marriage. I've supported it before it was popular, I think it should have been recognized by the state and leave the religious people out of it, allow them to do what they wish.

We have no right to force them to do anything. If they want to to hurt their own business, let them.

I find it hypocritical that people on the left are outraged by the handful of businesses not wanting to serve gays but are totally fine with something like sanctuary cities.
that is bc you continually fail to understand that ppl on the left stand for civil rights, human rights, equality, compassion, and fairness.

nothing hypocritical about it.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:20 PM   #5165
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Re: President Trump

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that is bc you continually fail to understand that ppl on the left stand for civil rights, human rights, equality, compassion, and fairness.

nothing hypocritical about it.
You fail to realize how you have made things worse. There is no such thing as equality of outcome. Stop for a second and think about that statement.

There is no such thing as equality of outcome. No where in the world has that ever happened across multiple fields.

You have turned compassion into victimhood. Everything about leftists right now is laughable. You have everything in reverse and you can't see it.

Just a few years ago I would chuckle at the idiocy of the right when they screamed "Benghazi" over and over and over again. Now the left is doing the same thing about the Russians and you don't even see it. You sound like a bunch of lunatics. You've succeeded into talking a significant portion of the population into believing a human being with a penis, a PENIS, is a FEMALE.

If you'd have told me 5 years ago we would be discussing a human with a penis being described as a female I'd have burst out laughing. If you guys can pull that off you can pull absolutely anything off. Red is blue, up is down, and Bruce Jenner, the man who used to be on my Wheaties box, is now a woman.

Wow. Holy ****, you people need to be stopped.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:36 PM   #5166
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Re: President Trump

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You fail to realize how you have made things worse. There is no such thing as equality of outcome. Stop for a second and think about that statement.

There is no such thing as equality of outcome. No where in the world has that ever happened across multiple fields.

You have turned compassion into victimhood. Everything about leftists right now is laughable. You have everything in reverse and you can't see it.

Just a few years ago I would chuckle at the idiocy of the right when they screamed "Benghazi" over and over and over again. Now the left is doing the same thing about the Russians and you don't even see it. You sound like a bunch of lunatics. You've succeeded into talking a significant portion of the population into believing a human being with a penis, a PENIS, is a FEMALE.

If you'd have told me 5 years ago we would be discussing a human with a penis being described as a female I'd have burst out laughing. If you guys can pull that off you can pull absolutely anything off. Red is blue, up is down, and Bruce Jenner, the man who used to be on my Wheaties box, is now a woman.

Wow. Holy ****, you people need to be stopped.
lol dude. like who cares if some miniscule portion of the population has gender identity issues.

and have you ever heard of legit transexuals? those are ppl who actually have both sex organs.

or some women have elevated testosterone so even though they dont have a penis, they have male characteristics? caster semonya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

but ya, we need to be stopped bc we want to treat ppl with respect and equality and justice.

and your only argument is that an insanely small percentage of ppl have certain gender issues. I would guess that life is not very easy for these ppl. and I would guess that they are hurting absolutely no one. like, the only inconvenience is that they preferred to be called he or she? and that is enough for you to launch into some tirade that all of western civilization is falling due.

I think you should rethink your positions. they are pretty crazy.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:44 PM   #5167
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Re: President Trump

Forget about equality of outcome - people aren't the same in their talent, financial need or ambition... more importantly though you can't credibly argue that there's equality of opportunity. Maybe some go too far in trying to fix these issues and end up creating other problems in the process, but leveling the playing field is clearly at least the intent of the left.

And what does being polite enough to address a genital mutilating eccentric by his preferred pronoun have to do with any of this?
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:45 PM   #5168
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Re: President Trump

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lol dude. like who cares if some miniscule portion of the population has gender identity issues..
You are implying I'm the one who cares. I do not care, you have it exactly in reverse. YOU are the one who cares. You care so much that you'd want to impose on me what I should call them. No.

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and have you ever heard of legit transexuals? those are ppl who actually have both sex organs.
Yes. What's the point?

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or some women have elevated testosterone so even though they dont have a penis, they have male characteristics? caster semonya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
Again, what's the point? What's this have to do with what I'm talking about?

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but ya, we need to be stopped bc we want to treat ppl with respect and equality and justice
This completely missed my point. I don't care how you treat people. Don't FORCE me to treat them how YOU want me to.

Quote:
and your only argument is that an insanely small percentage of ppl have certain gender issues. I would guess that life is not very easy for these ppl. and I would guess that they are hurting absolutely no one. like, the only inconvenience is that they preferred to be called he or she? and that is enough for you to launch into some tirade that all of western civilization is falling due.
This is no where near my only point. Did you even read my post? Do you even pay attention to what's going on in the world at all?

Do you understand what I'm even talking about? If someone here is rambling, it's you. I've brought up a myriad of different issues and you reduced it to me being mad about calling someone a she. Wtf is going on here?

Quote:
I think you should rethink your positions. they are pretty crazy
Absolutely reversed again. My points aren't crazy at all, it's yours that are insane. If we asked everyone on the planet their opinion on just the transgender issue, how many do you think would describe your position as "crazy" compared to mine? I'd put it at 90%+ your way crazy.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:52 PM   #5169
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Re: President Trump

dude, you get stark raving mad that a person has the audacity to be a transsexual. you absolutely care a ton.

do you get super mad about ppl having a first name and last name? when you meet someone and they are like "hello, my name is Bob" are you like woah woah wtf dude you are bringing civilization down by forcing me to call you Bob. no I will call wtf I want and it absolutely will not be Bob.

its truly bizarre how much you care about such a small and insignificant portion of the population.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:59 PM   #5170
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Re: President Trump

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If we asked everyone on the planet their opinion on just the transgender issue, how many do you think would describe your position as "crazy" compared to mine? I'd put it at 90%+ your way crazy.
And most of the people agreeing with you will be uneducated and/or come from cultures that have regressive and unenlightened attitudes to gender and sex. What does that tell us about you?
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:01 PM   #5171
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Re: President Trump

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dude, you get stark raving mad that a person has the audacity to be a transsexual. you absolutely care a ton..
I'm not mad about a single thing. I'm being very explicit because you simply do not understand my point. Over and over again we have to go through this because you do not understand what I'm saying. I don't care what transexuals want to be called, I care about being FORCED to do so.
Quote:
do you get super mad about ppl having a first name and last name? when you meet someone and they are like "hello, my name is Bob" are you like woah woah wtf dude you are bringing civilization down by forcing me to call you Bob. no I will call wtf I want and it absolutely will not be Bob. its truly bizarre how much you care about such a small and insignificant portion of the population
This means nothing and has nothing to do with what we are talking about, I suspect because, again, you do not understand my point. At all.
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:01 PM   #5172
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Re: President Trump

wil has invented the idea of appealing to a lower authority.
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:02 PM   #5173
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Re: President Trump

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And most of the people agreeing with you will be uneducated and/or come from cultures that have regressive and unenlightened attitudes to gender and sex. What does that tell us about you?
Well, we are blessed to have enlightened people to show us how for 99.9% of human history we had it ALL wrong. Humans aren't female or male depending on their anatomy, their thoughts determine their true sex.


Thank God you are here to explain it to us.
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:05 PM   #5174
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Re: President Trump

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Well, we are blessed to have enlightened people to show us how for 99.9% of human history we had it all wrong. Thank God you are here to explain it to us.
For hundreds of thousands of years humans thought the sun revolved around the earth; for a few hundred years we've known it doesn't.

Or is this something you also object to being forced to accept?
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:06 PM   #5175
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Re: President Trump

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I'm not mad about a single thing. I'm being very explicit because you simply do not understand my point. Over and over again we have to go through this because you do not understand what I'm saying. I don't care what transexuals want to be called, I care about being FORCED to do so.


This means nothing and has nothing to do with what we are talking about, I suspect because, again, you do not understand my point. At all.
Is anyone forcing you tho?

And do you get angry in situations where you are actually forced to act a certain way? What about addressing a judge as "your honor"?
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