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Old 04-18-2017, 06:59 PM   #4451
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Re: President Trump

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What about the fascist **** pulled by the left in Berkeley in, what was it, February?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
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Whataboutism is a term describing a propaganda technique used by the Soviet Union in its dealings with the Western world during the Cold War. When criticisms were levelled at the Soviet Union, the response would be "What about..." followed by the naming of an event in the Western world.[1][2] It represents a case of tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy),[3] a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position, without directly refuting or disproving the opponent's initial argument.

The term describing the technique was coined in 2008 by Edward Lucas in an article for The Economist. Lucas said that this tactic is observed in the politics of modern Russia, along with this being evidence of a resurgence of Cold War and Soviet-era mentality within Russia's leadership.[1]
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:01 PM   #4452
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Re: President Trump

This country has a long and proud tradition of taking up violence against Nazis and fascists. The original anti-fascists:
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:04 PM   #4453
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Re: President Trump

Antifa do not identify as liberals.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:06 PM   #4454
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Re: President Trump

Yeah technically they are anarchists I believe. I don't agree with all of Antifa's actions. But I do believe they have the right do defend themselves against violence, just like anybody else.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:09 PM   #4455
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Re: President Trump

I think they are mostly anarchists. Some communists too. Some probably neither. Most were quite anti-Hillary and perhaps a majority were anti-Bernie as well. They're just way more anti-Trumpenfuher.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:10 PM   #4456
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
Do you believe the people of Berkeley don't have the right to defend themselves against these white supremacists who are trying to start trouble from out-of-state? They should just sit there and take the beating because that's what liberals and hippies do? That's not what liberals are going to do from now on, I can tell you that.
I don't know the story. I only read that BS southern poverty law article.

I think you are mistaken in your implication that the left is reacting to violence. I think the left is the primary perpetrator of political violence in protests/groups in the United States, at least in the last 30 years or so.



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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
Very funny. (I'm still weighing the value of the "whataboutism" argument.) Regardless of its merits in general, clearly, in this case, the leftist fascist event in February to which the right was responding in April, is clearly relevant.

Do you, at least, agree that the violent protesting committed by the left in Berkeley in February was wrong?

Edit: I was writing this post while the above 3 posts were being posted. - crossed in the ether but still relevant.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:11 PM   #4457
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Re: President Trump

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Antifa do not identify as liberals.
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Originally Posted by einbert View Post
Yeah technically they are anarchists I believe. I don't agree with all of Antifa's actions. But I do believe they have the right do defend themselves against violence, just like anybody else.
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Originally Posted by microbet View Post
I think they are mostly anarchists. Some communists too. Some probably neither. Most were quite anti-Hillary and perhaps a majority were anti-Bernie as well. They're just way more anti-Trumpenfuher.
They are leftists.

Maybe you don't like them. I hope so, but they are left, not right.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:15 PM   #4458
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Re: President Trump

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They are leftists.

Maybe you don't like them. I hope so, but they are left, not right.
That's true.

I don't like people who take cheap shots like the Antifa guy who pepper sprayed the woman at the Milo rally, but I don't automatically dislike someone because they identify as part of Antifa.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:21 PM   #4459
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:22 PM   #4460
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Re: President Trump

inb4 someone says leftist fascists is a contradiction of terms.

tl;dr:

Spoiler:
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:26 PM   #4461
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Re: President Trump

Anarchists are definitely not totalitarian.

Communists, I'm not sure. Stalinists for sure. Leninist, I guess so. Trotskyists, I don't think so.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:27 PM   #4462
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Re: President Trump

We all know there comes a time when it is appropriate to use violence. Example, somebody breaks into your house. If white supremacists are attacking Berkeley from out-of-state, people have a right to defend themselves.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:33 PM   #4463
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Re: President Trump

Bert, have you seen more violence from the left or right in all these protests in the past year and a half?

Whoever used the whataboutism term: that is cute, but it goes both ways. I could just as easily say liberals seem to perpetrate more violence but you are okay with it by saying what about trump saying it is okay.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:35 PM   #4464
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Re: President Trump

You're joking, right?

Update: Incidents of Hateful Harassment Since Election Day Now Number 701
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/...now-number-701
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:36 PM   #4465
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Re: President Trump

Right-wing violence has spiked in record numbers since Trump's victory:

Hate crimes spike in wake of Donald Trump's win with 897 reports recorded in 10 days
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7445916.html
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:37 PM   #4466
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Re: President Trump

Post-election spate of hate crimes worse than post-9/11, experts say
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-say/93681294/
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What may seem like a dramatic rise in the number of hate harassment and hate incidents happening across the country in the wake of Tuesday's general election is not in anyone's imagination, experts say.

There indeed has been a spike in the number of reports of such incidents, say representatives for two organizations that track such occurrences. A representative for one group, in fact, said the rise appears to be even worse that what was took place immediately after the terror attacks in 2001.

"Since the election, we've seen a big uptick in incidents of vandalism, threats, intimidation spurred by the rhetoric surrounding Mr. Trump's election," Richard Cohen, president of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Ala., told USA TODAY. "The white supremacists out there are celebrating his victory and many are feeling their oats," Cohen said.

The incidents, some that bring up memories of the Jim Crow era, continued into Friday. In Philadelphia, the University of Pennsylvania issued a statement saying it was working to find the source of racist messages sent to black freshmen, and in Syracuse, N.Y., a group of pickup trucks - one draped with the Confederate flag - drove through an anti-Trump rally. In Columbus, Ohio, a man banged on the car window while a Muslim woman was driving, her children and elderly parents with her, and told her, "C--t, you don't belong in this country," according to the Council on American-Islamic Relations, based in Washington.

All those were added to the list of incidents that included black children being told to get to the back of a bus and Latino children being taunted about the wall that Trump promised to build between Mexico and the United States.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:38 PM   #4467
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Re: President Trump

First, I agree people have a right to defend themselves.

I haven't read up any more on this, but even from the article from the southern law poverty group, I don't think anyone was attacking Berkeley. Weren't the right wing protestors there to protest against the violations of free speech that occurred in February. They brought helmets and shields cuz they figured Antifa would be there again - starting the violence.

I mean, let's be clear about the February event. It appears that the police did nothing to stop the violence of Antifa, who were attempting to suppress free speech by means of violence.

The free speech supporters show up (including a white supremacist, or so I read), and a fight breaks out between the free speech supporters and the crowd opposing them - presumably the same crowd who suppressed speech with violence in the first place - not sure on that.

Are my facts mistaken some place?
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:39 PM   #4468
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Re: President Trump

Does it scare you guys that people are starting to realize that taking up violence against white supremacists is something that people are willing and actually eager to do right now.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:40 PM   #4469
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Re: President Trump

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They brought helmets and shields cuz they figured Antifa would be there again - starting the violence.
'

No they brought weapons because they always intended to assault people. Look at the imagery used on their propaganda before the event.

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Old 04-18-2017, 07:40 PM   #4470
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Re: President Trump

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I wonder why most people get sick of liberals name calling.
Who did I call a name?
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:41 PM   #4471
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:43 PM   #4472
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:43 PM   #4473
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by microbet View Post
Anarchists are definitely not totalitarian.

Communists, I'm not sure. Stalinists for sure. Leninist, I guess so. Trotskyists, I don't think so.
And Maoists, and Pol Pot(ists) and Ho Chi Min(ists)... I'll just stop now. Communism is, as practiced in our world, overwhelmingly totalitarian.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:44 PM   #4474
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Re: President Trump

Here's the same account, telling other alt-right Trump supporters how to make themselves look like antifa protesters at Berkeley today. pic.twitter.com/VskJQNldLG
Here's the same account, telling other alt-right Trump supporters how to make themselves look like antifa protesters at Berkeley today. pic.twitter.com/VskJQNldLG
Here's the same account, telling other alt-right Trump supporters how to make themselves look like antifa protesters at Berkeley today. pic.twitter.com/VskJQNldLG
Here's the same account, telling other alt-right Trump supporters how to make themselves look like antifa protesters at Berkeley today. pic.twitter.com/VskJQNldLG
Here's the same account, telling other alt-right Trump supporters how to make themselves look like antifa protesters at Berkeley today. pic.twitter.com/VskJQNldLG
Here's the same account, telling other alt-right Trump supporters how to make themselves look like antifa protesters at Berkeley today. pic.twitter.com/VskJQNldLG
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:46 PM   #4475
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Re: President Trump

"Someone else's babies" guy cannot contain his glee at a DREAMer being deported:

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