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02-14-2017 , 08:04 AM
Here's a little bit on Machiavelli, excerpt taken from the book I'm currently writing:

Spoiler:
In fact, there was only one Renaissance reader who paid any significant attention to the atomist passages [in Lucretius's De rerum natura ]– those which contain the idea of ‘the swerve’, made to do so much work by Greenblatt – Niccolò Machiavelli. Indeed, Machiavelli had transcribed De rerum natura by his own hand and it had a profound effect on his thinking. As Paul Rohe argues, ‘by 1517 or so, if not well before, Machiavelli had made Lucretius’ repudiation of religion and his rejection of natural teleology his own.’ Machiavelli’s knowledge of Epicureanism arguably underpins three aspects of his thinking: his hard materialism, his concept of fortune (that the nature of reality is fundamentally chaotic), and his rather dim and cynical view of human motives. Consider this passage in Discourses on Livy (1531):
Quote:
Besides this, human appetites are insatiable, for since from nature they have the ability and the wish to desire all things and from fortune the ability to achieve few of them, there continually results from this a discontent in human minds and a disgust with the things they possess.
We can see here how Machiavelli inherits the Epicurean view that people are naturally inclined to seek out pleasure, and that they have free will, but this takes on a fundamentally ambitious character which brings humans up to the limits of an unpredictable world, which they cannot control. Humans are thus in a perpetual state of anxiety because their desire can never be fulfilled. Unlike Epicurus, whose entire moral system can be seen as a kind of therapeutic coping mechanism to help people live a life freed from such anxieties, Machiavelli proposes no real solutions. Rather, he insists that we must recognise the reality of the situation; we cannot try to avoid or hide from ‘every type of filth’, because human vices exist in every age. It is on this recognition, of course, that Machiavelli builds his amoral political consequentialism in The Prince (1532): ‘For a man who wants to practice goodness in all situations is inevitably destroyed, among so many men who are not good.’
The nature of human desire in Machiavelli has an at times palpably capitalist character, as he seems to think that people value property and possessions more than the lives of others. In a letter to Giovanni de’ Medici (the future Pope Leo X) in 1512, he writes:
Quote:
Men feel more grief at a farm that is taken away from them than at a brother or father put to death, because sometimes death is forgotten, but property never. The reason is evident: everybody knows that a brother cannot rise from the dead because of a change in regimes, but there is a good possibility of regaining a farm.
He echoes this later in The Prince: ‘Men are quicker to forget the death of a father than the loss of an inheritance.’ Again we can see some traces of Epicureanism here: property produces both avarice and loss aversion, and death is annihilation.
02-14-2017 , 09:02 AM
Seems like I should take Machiavelli off the list. I'll get back to the substance later.
02-14-2017 , 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordJvK
Machiavelli supported immigration as a means of empire building. Presumably you aren't pro empires.
What has this to do with anything we are discussing here?
02-14-2017 , 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.F.K.1.1
It shows how debased national conversation has become that a poster will start a thread on Political Philosophy and out of all the marvelous and enlightening possibilities of discourse that could emerge from that title, he makes it about immigration.

Amazing.
Well immigration is probably the hottest topic in political discourse right now, at least in some european countries.

It can be said that brexit was about immigration (at least for a large part), the russian-american relationship in italy is seen through the lens of immigration (libia intervention and siria problems are an immigration issue for us), french current elections are about a lot of things but immigration is always in the front line for them right now, and germany is discussing the refugee thing and it seems to be the most relevant factor to understand the ebbs and flow of AfD support.

So it's not absurd for this thread to collapse on immigration among all the marvelous things that we could discuss.

Not so long ago the main topic was the role of the state into the economy.
02-14-2017 , 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeno
It is a misrepresentation to only view Machiavelli through the lens of The Prince. He was so much more, the narrow stereotypical view of him is a really disservice to his diversity and thought.

Essential-Writings-Machiavelli-Library-Classics/dp/0812974239

From above link:


In The Essential Writings of Machiavelli, Peter Constantine has assembled a comprehensive collection that shows the true depth and breadth of a great Renaissance thinker. Refreshingly accessible, these superb new translations are faithful to Machiavelli’s original, beautifully crafted writings.

The volume features essays that appear in English for the first time, such as “A Caution to the Medici” and “The Persecution of Africa.” Also included are complete versions of the political treatise, The Prince, the comic satire The Mandrake, The Life of Castruccio Castracani, and the classic story “Belfagor”, along with selections from The Discourses, The Art of War, and Florentine Histories. Augmented with useful features–vital and concise annotations and cross-references–this unique compendium is certain to become the standard one-volume reference to this influential, versatile, and ever timely writer.

“Machiavelli's stress on political necessity rather than moral perfection helped inspire the Renaissance by renewing links with Thucydides and other classical thinkers. This new collection provides deeper insight into Machiavelli’s personality as a writer, thus broadening our understanding of him
Here http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10827/10827-8.txt the discourses are freely accessible, they give a much more nuanced read on machiavelli stance.

For me, being an italian graduated at a good lyceum (a type of high school), these come easily enough given that machiavelli is studied togheter with other italian literature at the time and with a very detailed approach to italian history to understand context.

I have no idea how much this stuff is studied at high school or non-literary college in the US, i know that they study it at depth in the humanities in good british colleges though.
02-14-2017 , 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luciom
What has this to do with anything we are discussing here?
Because my original question was about Merkel's policy of accepting 900,000+ refugees.

I mean, it seems a stretch to me to believe that Machiavelli would think the benefits would outweigh the costs on this.

Re: Mercy, he says this:

Quote:
Cesare Borgia was considered cruel; notwithstanding, his cruelty reconciled the Romagna, unified it, and restored it to peace and loyalty. And if this be rightly considered, he will be seen to have been much more merciful than the Florentine people, who, to avoid a reputation for cruelty, permitted Pistoia to be destroyed. Therefore a prince, so long as he keeps his subjects united and loyal, ought not to mind the reproach of cruelty; because with a few examples he will be more merciful than those who, through too much mercy, allow disorders to arise, from which follow murders or robberies; for these are wont to injure the whole people, whilst those executions which originate with a prince offend the individual only.
I am almost positive that Merkel's policy has not ensured that people are "united and loyal" and has allowed "disorders to arise ... which follow from murders or robberies".

From statistics I saw, over 60,000 crimes as a direct result of the policy, which is obviously a great cost.

I'd be interested to see if you could make a case for this actually being a case of virtu in the Machiavellian sense.
02-14-2017 , 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordJvK
Here's a little bit on Machiavelli, excerpt taken from the book I'm currently writing:

Spoiler:
In fact, there was only one Renaissance reader who paid any significant attention to the atomist passages [in Lucretius's De rerum natura ]– those which contain the idea of ‘the swerve’, made to do so much work by Greenblatt – Niccolò Machiavelli. Indeed, Machiavelli had transcribed De rerum natura by his own hand and it had a profound effect on his thinking. As Paul Rohe argues, ‘by 1517 or so, if not well before, Machiavelli had made Lucretius’ repudiation of religion and his rejection of natural teleology his own.’ Machiavelli’s knowledge of Epicureanism arguably underpins three aspects of his thinking: his hard materialism, his concept of fortune (that the nature of reality is fundamentally chaotic), and his rather dim and cynical view of human motives. Consider this passage in Discourses on Livy (1531):


We can see here how Machiavelli inherits the Epicurean view that people are naturally inclined to seek out pleasure, and that they have free will, but this takes on a fundamentally ambitious character which brings humans up to the limits of an unpredictable world, which they cannot control. Humans are thus in a perpetual state of anxiety because their desire can never be fulfilled. Unlike Epicurus, whose entire moral system can be seen as a kind of therapeutic coping mechanism to help people live a life freed from such anxieties, Machiavelli proposes no real solutions. Rather, he insists that we must recognise the reality of the situation; we cannot try to avoid or hide from ‘every type of filth’, because human vices exist in every age. It is on this recognition, of course, that Machiavelli builds his amoral political consequentialism in The Prince (1532): ‘For a man who wants to practice goodness in all situations is inevitably destroyed, among so many men who are not good.’
The nature of human desire in Machiavelli has an at times palpably capitalist character, as he seems to think that people value property and possessions more than the lives of others. In a letter to Giovanni de’ Medici (the future Pope Leo X) in 1512, he writes:


He echoes this later in The Prince: ‘Men are quicker to forget the death of a father than the loss of an inheritance.’ Again we can see some traces of Epicureanism here: property produces both avarice and loss aversion, and death is annihilation.
Honestly i would call this a big word salad, with some big factual mistakes.

Saying that machiavelli opinion on fortune is that "the world is fundamentally chaotic" is just false for example.

He discusses the matter in chapter XXV, the prince, here the full text

http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince25.htm

IT is not unknown to me how many men have had, and still have, the opinion that the affairs of the world are in such wise governed by fortune and by God that men with their wisdom cannot direct them and that no one can even help them; and because of this they would have us believe that it is not necessary to labour much in affairs, but to let chance govern them. This opinion has been more credited in our times because of the great changes in affairs which have been seen, and may still be seen, every day, beyond all human conjecture. Sometimes pondering over this, I am in some degree inclined to their opinion. Nevertheless, not to extinguish our free will, I hold it to be true that Fortune is the arbiter of one-half of our actions, but that she still leaves us to direct the other half, or perhaps a little less.

He actually starts the chapter by saying that fatalism is wrong!

Not sure again anyway what this has to do with the original claims of this thread.
02-14-2017 , 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordJvK
Because my original question was about Merkel's policy of accepting 900,000+ refugees.

I mean, it seems a stretch to me to believe that Machiavelli would think the benefits would outweigh the costs on this.

Re: Mercy, he says this:



I am almost positive that Merkel's policy has not ensured that people are "united and loyal" and has allowed "disorders to arise ... which follow from murders or robberies".

From statistics I saw, over 60,000 crimes as a direct result of the policy, which is obviously a great cost.

I'd be interested to see if you could make a case for this actually being a case of virtu in the Machiavellian sense.
Please try to translate the 900k as a % of total population. Let's call it the 1.1%.

Accepting an increase by 1.1% of current population is so much of a stretch? why?

Are 60k crimes "obviously a great cost"? again can you give percentages of increase over the baseline?

I gave you a list of advantages coming from the refugee, in the present and in the future (demography being the most important), why are you so sure that machiavelli would weigth those as lower than the damages?

In the virtu sense, merkel is signalling an humanity that can be appreciated, why is that not clear? it's signaling to SPD and other leftists voters that she can be on the left when the morality of that choice is trasparent.

Remember that keeping german government on the center is a moral (and social, and economical) positive for the nation. So you could think of it as (maybe) sacrificing something in order to maintain power where it needs to be (ie not on the extremes).

Merkel is playing a balancing act between leftist extremism, and right extremism, maybe she overplayed a little on the left but she steered again to the center n recent times to combat AfD, and the polls give them at least the benefit of the doubt.

One of the way to look at the refugee intake is a concession to the german immigrationist left in order to secure power for a long time, without giving to that part of society the more negative things they ask for (bad public expense, too high of a minimum wage and so on).
02-14-2017 , 09:43 AM
I stand by what I said.

He maintains that fortune dictates at least 50% of what happens.

His view is that we should -- to use a modern phrase -- control the controllables.

But he ALWAYS maintains that you could have the best plans, be the most cunning, do whatever it takes and STILL be hostage to fortune.

Note:

1. This notion of a "chaotic world" is taken from Lucretius in contrast to the "ordered world" of medieval theology. This is established earlier in the chapter.

2. Machiavelli is obviously always for order, and trying to mitigate whereever possible, against chaos.

Where did I say he was fatalistic?

Elsewhere, I've discussed fortuna at some length.

Let me find some bits.
02-14-2017 , 09:54 AM
Cliffs:

- Machiavelli sees changing fortunes as a guaranteed (inevitable) constant
- He compares fortune to "one of those violent rivers which, when they are enraged, flood the plains, tears down trees and buildings, wash soil from one place to another"
- For him, humans cannot control fortune, but they can plan for contingenciesand dampen the impact of sudden changes

But even your best efforts can only get you to 50%, that's still an awful lot being left to chance.

So I maintain that his call is for order in a world that is fundamentally chaotic (see also: not planned by God, not providentially ordained, not "ordered by Nature", etc)
02-14-2017 , 05:16 PM
I would submit that Merkel's acceptance of migrants was not motivated by an egalitarian view at all, rather it was based on a rather Machiavellian view of the best way to preserve Germany's economic might and pension system in the view of failing demographics and increasing costs in labor. This is made clear as Germany does not seem to care where the migrants come from, Syria or otherwise.

See for example, http://oil-price.net/en/articles/oil...-civil-war.php

That it's blowing up in their face makes it look seriously unwise in hindsight, but the motives behind it were rather Machiavellian.

So to answer your question, I do not think there are any present nation states that represent your Christian King, except for perhaps Canada and Sweden. The rest adhere to Machiavelli's view of the world; how it manifests itself depends on the needs of the nation state and the information they have available. So the results would indicate that Machiavelli's view is correct.

Last edited by Morishita System; 02-14-2017 at 05:25 PM.

      
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