Man, LK/Anais and I have had a few spats but in terms of crying about apologetics he's not in the same league as Dids and Fly. He's not even on the radar

Maybe not. I haven't been around here long. Anais does have a sense of humor.

Why should the presumption of innocence mean anything outside of a legal setting?

We sure Jibninjas isn't a BruceZ gimmick?

Bruce is much smarter.

Well, why not? It's a sound principle. What is the downside to applying it more broadly, for instance, having an opinion with a measure of uncertainty on the internet?

Someone saying something on the internet doesn't necessarily imply you are 100% certain.

I think.

Braggart.

Is thekid's first language English? If yes he is my nominee for LIP.

Are you asking why you should give people the benefit of the doubt?

Presumption of innocence deals with burden of proof. In a trial, the prosecution generally proceeds as if it believes the accused is guilty in its arguments. Taking a side in an argument is more like acting as if you are the prosecution or defense. We don't have any moral obligation to act like jurors, dispassionately weighing the evidence as it is presented to us.

I'm asking why I should give people every benefit of the doubt.

I know you're mostly referring to The Cos here, but when it comes to Jibninjas I absolutely do think mocking him mercilessly is the best thing to do*. I admire your patience with him and attempts to have a civil conversation, but you're basically being trolled. He's not posting to have a discussion or learn anything, he's posting to be a dick in an environment where he knows his opinions are considered abhorrent. He gets off on this. It makes him feel... hell, I don't really know what he gets out of it, but he likes it. He likes seeing you put effort into something that he has decided in advance will not change his mind in any way, no matter what you say.




*Ignoring him is actually the best thing to do, but whatever.

The **** is it with this website and racist-ass moderators?

well...

We can't always get together for a rousing rendition of kumbaya, wookie.

You might be right. I don't have a lot invested in Jibninjas. I know I have a reputation here, but I've really only gone strongly to bat for one person and feel like it held up very well. Minor going to bat for one other.

Fly asked a very good question of Jibninja, which he would have at least tried to answer if it weren't for every other one of Fly's posts. The one about him reconciling his idea that there is no racial profiling with his ideas that racial profiling is warranted.

As for me, this is not a trick, I'm a big freedom lover myself, I think conservatives should respond to the idea that this is a freedom worth fighting for even if that fight means some kind of added risks in our lives.

And you zikzak were pretty patient at times explaining that in order for Wilson to be racist he doesn't necessarily have to hate Blacks. It could be a barely conscious inclination to see Blacks as dangerous and there's certainly evidence showing that that is common.

I have a general theory that many reactionary conservatives - the 'libruls suck people - are mostly being defensive. They feel attacked just by someone declaring something wrong. They turn empathy into self-righteousness and attack and get attacked etc. Very few people want to be wrong, almost no one thinks they are hateful. Everyone is the hero of their own story.

Also, another theory, not mine - conservatives are more fearful

Whatever...damn I'm spending a lot of time on 2p2 lately.

Jesus Christ.

That one kinda jumped out when I took a glance in History, but my favorite was the thread about how the Union winning the Civil War basically led to Hitler.

Who said you should do that?

Typically a person has reason to give the benefit of a doubt in a situation. Perhaps it is unknown how much 'evidence' has been discovered. Maybe a person's actions does not fit what is known to be typical of their character. Giving a benefit of a doubt is kind of like looking before you leap or gathering all the available information about a situation before coming to a certain conclusion.

When we see the way wookie behaves with fly and pvn foaming at his side it's impossible to ignore the fact that liberals sometimes deserve a bad name. I'm not sure some of these so called liberals can understand that their behavior needs to be attacked not because their targets behavior isn't a problem but because their own behavior is also a problem. Decent liberals don't only defend the people who are 'on our side'

I think another reason reactionary conservatives feel attacked is because they are losing, it's slow going from our perspective but from their perspective the liberals have taken over.

I doubt this is the case for many to the right of the left leaning of this board as we don't see this as accurate. Their are certainly issues that is the case like gay marriage where the court of public opinion has changed so quickly but it i going to take more than two Presidential elections to convince us that we have lost. Not trying to argue the merits here just rightsplaining our perspective. We can hang our hats on the House, The Senate, most of the state governments as evidence that we are not ready for one ideology rule. For this we give a hearty thanks Obama.
The reason that people feel attacked is that they are being attacked. Broad brush ideology attacks or plain old personal insults are the norm. Conservatives get the brunt of it due to the the ideological composition of the board but we all do it occasionally. I wanna throttle Phil every other day.
I would never count on people thinking they are wrong or losing. I have seen really smart people here make and stay wedded to horrible arguments. Politics makes us dumb and we are blinded by ideology at times.

The fact gay marriage is real live politics is an example of more the point I'm making, I know I'm a bit older than most here but homosexual acts even for older adults in private was a criminal offense even in the UK in my lifetime. The triumph of liberalism is that it has won hearts and minds to the extent that a conservatives prime minister in the UK for helped pushed through the gay marriage legislation. Those who haven't been won over are genuinely under attack whether they realise it or not, some do realise it.

I agree with all of that, except I don't know Phil that well.

We cant count on anyone including ourselves to change entrenched views quickly, particularly not in the midst of an argument. You will find some people become less wedded over time, that's a far more realistic expectation of a good outcome.