That's not the issue. In P wookie gets to decide.

Yeah, I am not sure this is true. Edit: In the same way as it is for Jews

I could be wrong about this, but I would not think someone would be a Muslim if they are not religious at all. A Jew can be an atheist, a Christian, a Buddhist, or a Muslim.

Jews are an ethnic group.

Not in his mind, though, and that's what i'm getting at.

okay it could be a genuine point of confusion then. Pretty sure it is true even if its not as accepted as it is with Jews. thekid345 can clarify if he was distinguishing the set of people referred to as Muslims from the set of people who follow some form of Islam teaching.

Even so it would still be the case that claiming "Muslims are out to get us" would be very bigoted and lumps together a group of people with a wide range of religious views and attitudes towards others.

True

True

I understand that race and religion are two different things. But as you suggest above, it is bigoted to suggest that Muslims are out to get us.

Not to mention kind of paranoid.

True

Jews have always referred to themselves as a nation ("Am Israel"), which is broader than an ethnic group.

This is relevant because a nation is generally distinguished from ethnic group by virtue of having a territorial component to the identity. For millennia, Jews (in particular religious Jews) have continuously held the land of Israel as a fundamental part of their identity, and their presence outside Israel as an exile; or more recently, as a diaspora.

wtf are you talking about, that is not true either. Or are people not agreeing with the "virtue of having a territorial component to the identity" not Jews per defintion?

Individuals gonna individual. Mainstream gonna mainstream.

Do you really want ignore a continuous 2500 years of mainstream Jewish writing, liturgy, history, and philosophical thought that describes the literal necessity of Eretz Israel to Jewish ritual, not to mention the Jews' various existences as a political entity and culture in Eretz Israel?

I'm sure someone that is clearly unaware of the centrality of "Har Zion", "Next Year in Jerusalem", "Bnai Israel", "Am Israel", in Jewish thought for millennia, combined with the relatively recent secular-led Zionist movement, has something worthwhile to add to this.

Or is your "no it's not" going to be all we get?

What "it is mainstream" going to be all we get?

I am not even going to contest that: what you cite is mainstream. But you said:

And that is not true. Maybe most of Jews have. Cool. By what virtue do you ignore the Jews that did and do not? That is your answer? So how can I refute that by posting names of individuals who thought otherwise?

Having a religious and ethnic identity does not exempt a State from harsh criticism or immunity from crimes against humanity.

Any chance of barring negs from the alta politica Obamacare thread? Like, he's reaching bahaba levels of willful ignorance. Half the thread is people explaining to him what insurance is.

I felt this exact way. I think that's why so many people were asking him some probing questions. I specifically asked him if English was his first language. Then I questioned his religious background.

Finally I just gave up because he's not worth engaging. He doesn't seem outwardly hostile or mean, but the stupidity of his posts are frustrating.

Of course it doesn't, that's a completely unrelated issue.

There are subsets of Jews that believe all sorts of things. it only supports my argument - that Jews are a group with a wide range of belief systems, geographic locations, legal citizenships, and yes, even ethnicities.

I reiterate. The vast majority of Jews view their identities, histories, religious observance, and culture as inseparable from Eretz Israel. That's enough to generalize, imo.

I could cite dozens of Jewish laws like shmita, the Jewish calendar, and the numerous traditions, prophesies, and observances which - by Jewish law - must be observed in Eretz Israel and not elsewhere. Say what you will about religion as history. But if the book hasn't substantially changed in a millennium or more, it's probably a good indicator of the basic self-identification of the people who came out of it.

Some folks have a hard time with the concept and it is very much related. If a person criticizes Jews, but unknown to the audience, means Israel and bases that assumption on the notion that the state, religion, and ethnicity are interconnect elements of the Jewish identity, is that person being anti-Semitic or are they acknowledging what you are describing in the thread?

I think "vast" majority is a pretty big overstatement. In the US, among religious Jews, there is certainly a pretty strong feeling for the homeland. Among secular Jews, probably most don't care much and others feel like it's more of having a place for Jews, primarily because of the holocaust, but it being Israel in particular is not the main thing.

I think for many Jews, NYC seems more like the homeland than Israel. Instead of Sephardic and Ashkenazi, we divide up as pastrami Jews and hummus Jews.

It would be surprising if Jews in Israel didn't poll quite differently.

Interconnected =/= indistinguishable from.

State of Israel =/= the land of Israel.

Here's a hint: does the criticism go to the policies of the government of the State of Israel, or its army's RoE, combat standards, individual politicians or parties, Jewish and/or Zionist political organizations, etc etc.?

Incidentally, the conflation of the above organizations without distinction is a pretty decent indicator of ignorance, stupidity, anti-semitism, or all three.

Or is it a general criticism on "the Jews"?

Is spray-painting or firebombing a synagogue a valid criticism of the State of Israel?

How about "the Jews don't have a right to a state among the rest of the nations"?

How about "Jews should not live over this line on a map, or have safe, free access to their historical holy places?"

How about "the government should make more unilateral concessions to the Palestinian Arabs in the hopes they will make peace."

It's pretty clear that all four are equally stupid, the second last one is complicated, and the last one is the only one that is unambiguously not anti-semitism.

I think this is a very Amero-centric, secular view.

Not that I have poll data, but I would bet good money that outside the secular, American, jewish community, there is more than just "a strong feeling." Eretz Israel is a distinct concept from the State, and yet the renewal of Jewish life in Eretz Israel is a strong theme of their identity, especially in places that are less assimilated (which is basically everywhere outside the U.S.).

But what do I know.

Israel and the US each have about 6 million Jews and those 12 million make up about 90% of the Jews in the world.

So, it's Amero or Israelio centric and that's it. Canada is a lovely country, but sorry.

Here's some US polling data from a recent Pew poll. It doesn't go to the heart of our question because its vague as to what "Israel" means, but we can hopefully agree that it is some sort of indicator.



Even in the US, only 12% think Israel is not an important part of being "Jewish". Only 25% of non-religious Jews. The degree to which Jews in the US think Israel is absolutely essential basically follows what you'd expect, from a religious, age, and political perspective.

Some interesting and worrying trends in those numbers. I think it speaks to the power of American cultural assimilation. Keep in mind that refers to the Jewish state, not the Land of Israel. And religious people are less likely to be assimilated and more likely to hold doctrinal Jewish beliefs.

If I were a Palestinian activist or a certain poster on this forum, I'd call that cultural genocide

Here is Chabad, the largest Jewish outreach organization in the world, on Israel:

There's just kind of a lot of room in "Important, but not essential."

I'm sorry, but I'm part of the genocide. I married a shiksa. My mom takes my kids to temple sometimes, but of course my kids don't have a Jewish mother. The extent of my contribution to the Jewishness of my kids is making sure they have seen documentaries on the holocaust and Sandy Koufax.

Do Israelis say shiksa? The Israelis I know don't really use any Yiddish. Seems to be more of a pastrami Jew thing.