Sure I'll respond to both here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heehaww
@dereds, if you reply to my latest post from the Trump thread, you might as well reply to it here instead of there.
Some people. It's also possible to be "pro-choice" (which definitely is a euphemism) and still see the fetus as a child. I've yet to hear a good explanation as to how a very late-term fetus isn't a child.
What we call the fetus is less important than what it is, only that names seem to imply rights and I think it is important to determine what rights are and when they obtain. I have not heard anyone provide an adequate definition of what a right to life is or when it obtains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heehaww
Edit: and I got a little testy in the other thread because I felt like I was having a debate with the characters from Portlandia's "Women and Women First" bookstore, which in turn felt like banging my head into a wall.
You were having a debate with me and I didn't think you were testy but I clarified that it is individual autonomy not women's autonomy that is the guiding principle but that in the case of pregnancy the autonomy at issue is the persons bearing the fetus and so is specific to women.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heehaww
I don't know how you can know this or have a strong hunch about it. Just prior to birth, I'd say the fetus has the interests of being fed and comfortable (does a baby have others?), but those needs are currently all being met -- perfect temperature, never hungry, no bright lights, not being slapped in the face. When it gets pushed out, 3 of those things immediately change so it understandably cries.
If the fetus were born a few days early by c-section, my guess is you'd say the premature baby has a baby's interests. So then a few days prior to birth, a fetus is the same creature as a baby but in a different environment. How does the environment determine whether/not something has interests? If you were to somehow stick a newborn back into the womb, would it stop having baby interests again?
The premature baby is a baby and the interests of the baby are those you've identified, the important difference between the fetus and the new born, is that the fetus interests make demands of the mother and the new born's don't. So there is a potential conflict between the mothers interests and those of the fetus that are absent post birth and we need to find a way to adjudicate. My argument is that in finding against the woman and so prohibiting abortion undervalues the woman's autonomy because there is no equivalent autonomy for the fetus, this is the point the fetus does not have the minimal autonomy that acquires at birth. Sure the baby still needs caring for but they are able to exist independently of the mother.
Last edited by dereds; 08-13-2015 at 05:26 AM.