Brian and DIB have both taken an extremely patronizing tone with people who have the gall to not agree with their nonexistent proposals.

well named, this is like the third identical thread about this ****. Sorry if my patience is a bit short, but you came in to the third act of the movie and you're asking which side the guy with the hat is on. If you gave me and Trolly the benefit of the doubt you're affording DIB and Brian my tone with you wouldn't be so abrasive.

Seriously, why the **** is your mindset that the burden is on the normal people to brainstorm up ways in which mandated reporting could be good(and when someone points out a problematic consequence of your revised mandated reporting proposal, well, don't blame mandated reporting, which we already assumed was good, for society at large's problems!)?

Think **** through. It's not that hard. Don't speak in generalities, and for God's sake don't fill in the blanks with how you think it probably works to make this a good idea, Christ that's annoying. Actual specific situations.

What situation, right now, is the PROBLEM that a college employee is aware of a sexual assault but don't tell the police? It's nonsensical. Look at Winston(again). She went to the police first.

Fly, 1 in 10 college rapes being reported to the police. You see this as a problem? Seems like you don't, but maybe you do.

So I thought the back and forth from Wookie and DiB to start the thread was obnoxious on both sides. Hence Post #19. The goal was maybe people would talk about the topic instead of just the dibs vs the world thing. Maybe I'm just irritated because it mostly got ignored.

I don't have an appropriate GIF to express my reaction to being told that I am the one who should be less abrasive and give more of the benefit of the doubt here, but I did in fact reads acts I and II of this play. If you don't want to engage dibbers (or ikes or brian) on this topic because of what happened previously, okie dokie. That doesn't mean you can't reasonably engage me, an entirely separate person, without needing to lump me in with whatever hive of scum and villainy you take them for.

I am under the impression that you think there are very clear reasons why some form of mandatory reporting is at best useless and at worst counterproductive. I see ctyri's note about the military and P.R's HuffPo article, which is already enough to think about. If you have any other points for my consideration they would be appreciated. At least by me

And with that I think the meta-commentary about posting styles is probably past the point of usefulness, and I'm just venting, so feel no need to respond on any of that.

It was written by a crown prosecutor and is a factual account of what women can expect in the best case scenario, that their case makes it to court. She sought to explain why not reporting and just getting on with your life is the rational decision for women.

The problem is that the standard legal customs favourable to the accused are good overall, but the price of this is that there is a category of crime (unwitnessed sexual coercion) for which, given two competing claims, the accused's claim is considered the more reliable one by default and the testing of the reliability of the victim is achieved by shaming and revictimizing her in public. (This in addition to half her friends abandoning her and half of his harassing her.)

Wookie was asking DIB to explain what the topic was!

You were already on DIB's side there if you saw that as obnoxious. You had already done work to fill in the gaps and got frustrated that Wookie hadn't also done that handwaving "OK and then pretend that's how it works and then pretend this will make it better: discuss". Don't do that. Wookie's questions stand unanswered. When they are answered, we can talk about the topic.

(PS, cheers, Fly)

PR, I think of you a lot like I think of voracious reader (I wish she was still around). In that I think you're pretty much awesome. Might not mean much coming from me, but it never hurts to hear

P.R. - Like FFS campus rape is a serious goddamn problem and the issue is emphatically not that we aren't coercing young women into courtrooms, at this point these dudes are talking about the ****ING PROBLEM is campus rape victims covering up their own rapes! "How can we stop these young women from perpetrating this deception?" It's all ass backwards.

well named- I apologize if you're getting upset here, but dude you gotta look at the big picture.

I quit playing werewolf so I'm just looking for new things to go on ragetilt about

Fly is so very serious making up fiction about other users to help solve rape.

The fact that wookie is slightly less intellectually capable than fly when it comes to understanding other posters is telling to why they both get upset when their fiction and obsessive targeting is confronted.

And lol a law-type understanding victimization better than counselor-types. Lol lol lol. It's not funny, but laughing helps with the cope. At least we know one of those types has been trained in a therapeutic methods.

Who cares what DIB thinks other than Fly? I certainly don't.

My idea isn't to arrest perpetrators purely to shame them. I am only bringing that up because of you obsessing over the victims who don't cooperate when they are asked what happened.

The reason why schools should be forced to report to the cops is because serious crimes ought be reported. To not do so is to be dismissive of the seriousness of the crime. The reason why the cops should be forced to arrest/investigate is because serious crimes ought to be taken seriously by the cops.

It is ridiculous for the cops to ask a victim whether they want to press charges. It is dismissive of the seriousness of what has happened. Requiring victims to make a heroic decision to press charges is cruel and REDUCES the likelihood that they will cooperate with a potential investigation.

I don't have hard data on whether people are less likely to seek help where there is a duty to report. It is a valid concern, but where such things have been put into place for child abuse and domestic violence there hasn't been a reduction in victims seeking help.

Fly I don't think mandated reporting is a good idea. I've stated as such over and over again. What is funny is that you clearly have no idea what it means, yet are arguing voraciously against it. Keep ****ing that chicken.... consensually of course.

Don't we have to both take this into account and ignore it?

We take it into account in when deciding what's best for victims now. Victims willing and able to take on the world deserve all the support we can muster but it sounds wrong to force them to get involved unless necessary.

However, we ignore it when considering where we want to get to because tackling any problems in the judicial system etc is important and possible. Case in point is where the criminal process obstructs the civil process, this needs to be addressed because it's simply not good enough to treat it as some law of nature. Furthermore we cannot separate these issues as the only reason to worry about criminal law obstructing civil processes is because of concern for those involved.

The objection some have to brainstorming these issues defeats me. The fact people with some expertise or experience are willing to get stuck in to a discussion is something to be prized not derided.

Also mandated reporting is a serious idea with benefits and costs. Dismissing it as pure idiocy seems to come from either a place of ignorance or simple trolling.

That wasn't the impression I got from your earlier comment about dating a guy with an arrest record, but w/e. I think we both agree the cops should take rape cases seriously.

OK, I think this is the sticking point. The cops can't press charges without some kind of evidence. Unless there's video evidence or another eyewitness to the rape (extremely unlikely), they kinda need to victim to come forward and ID the rapist. The counselor's second-hand account of the crime isn't enough for them to press charges. This isn't me being dismissive of the seriousness of rape, this is me understanding what hearsay evidence is.

The school isn't going to take him out of her environment given the current state of things.

There is no reason for the school to not take additional action.

Those are excellent reasons for absolutely no sexual assault victims to EVER speak to the cops. That also needs fixed.

There is no reason for us to allow "well, she was drunk" or "well, she was wearing attractive clothing" as an excuse, or to allow the authorities to treat victims poorly, or to allow defense lawyers to engage in victim blaming.

The school wasn't going to expel him anyway. That almost never happens.

That sounds exactly like the current state of things.

Unchained or not, making college staff mandated reporters is so simple a proposal that passionate demands for clarity come across as cries for help. Like #dudeliterally, these folks have special needs that I’m unable to meet. If this proposal is so confounding to you that you still can’t comprehend how it works, then frankly you’re just gonna have to learn to be comfortable with your ignorance and feeble mindedness.

He clearly #dudeliterally doesn’t understand how mandated reporting works. That’s the problem he/Wookie/Trolly are having with this concept.

What they think are lacking proposal details are actually just ignorance on their part about what mandated reporting actually IS. Anything resembling a specific question that’s been proposed have actually been questions about mandated reporting. Wookie: “What about rumors of rape…?” Trolly: “I guess I’m just confused about mandated reporting…” Fly: “I’m an ignorant blowhard.”

Just read about mandated reporting! FFS! It’s really not hard.

Know what’s nonsense? That sentence. Are you asking what the problem is with staff knowing about sexual assault and not informing the authorities about it?

You know how outraged you would be if you learned that 9 out of 10 murders on campus never got reported to the cops? All the reasons you’d be outraged over that are the reasons why I find 9 out of 10 rapes being unreported problematic.

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding at work here. I nor anyone else are suggesting that victims MUST cooperate with the police during investigations, only that the police are informed of the alleged sexual assault.

I happen to think that mandated reporting, along with a more trauma-informed investigative process and bolstered victim supports (among other things, including Brian’s suggestion that we stop asking victims if they want to press charges…) would lead to more women cooperating than what is observed currently, and I think that this would be a huge victory in the fight to end rape at schools.

I mean, let’s remember what our goal is here: Rape prevention. 90% of all campus rapes are done by serial offenders. If just 1 of the rapist’s victims cooperates then we’ve got a chance at putting a serial rapist behind bars, potentially preventing future victimization. Putting him behind bars is the only real way to immediately ensure everyone’s safety. Is the process easy? Surely not. Is it fun? Of course not. But is it necessary? Absolutely.

Again…so much this.

What you’re missing is the fact that we already have mandated reporting that involves victims who otherwise would never have sought police involvement on their own, and that participation often follows suit.

Were you under the impression that a victim who wouldn’t otherwise pursue police involvement necessarily maintains this position moving forward? Again, this isn’t what we see when looking at mandated reporting in other contexts, and I think there’s reason to believe we’d get even more cooperation from college students than children, the elderly, dependent adults, etc.

You like to bring up the Winston case. The case I am most interested in is that of Emma Sulkowicz at Columbia University. I'm pretty sure I have mentioned it in related threads. Are you aware of the details of her situation? What do you think should be done to fix the process at Columbia?

You need the understand the fine details between not asking a victim of they want to press charges and giving victims a fair opportunity to press charges with a direct contact. The cops can ask of victims how can we help? which is not asking them if they want to press charges.

I believe in a paradigm where the first responders to a mandated report are not cops, but counselors. The police are second at the door. A parallel goal to making arrests is supporting victims and enabling them to stand up on their own.

Also goes back to educating new students that there is a mandated reporting system, indirectly resisting a the want of attackers for people to be silent by talking even more about it with a clear purpose.
Potential victims are enabled by a 'culture' where reporting lends credit to the seriousness of rape and sexual assault. Knowing somebody is going to listen to them while they decided how to respond if they are attacked. Culture is the wrong word. It is more an issue of education than cultural.

My fault for not repeating the entire thing again. There will obviously be cases in which all that happens is nothing, other cases where the arrest/investigation doesn't lead to charges being made, and other cases where charges being made doesn't lead to a conviction.

A perpetrator being arrested but not charged isn't worse than absolutely nothing happening. It is at least marginally better due to the deterrent effect, the warning effect, and because doing nothing is worse for the victims.

It is sufficient for them to arrest and launch an investigation. I don't want the decision to not do so to be an option for the cops.

The police going to the victim and asking "what happened and who did it" is considerably different than asking the victim "would you like to press charges." The police arresting the perpetrator and questioning him no matter what is considerably different than them waiting for the victim to request that they do so.

It obviously won't always lead to charges and conviction. I'm not suggesting that it will solve all the world's problems, just improve it in similar ways as has already been done for child abuse and domestic violence.

Brian stop just making **** up.

Only two other students have filed complaints with the university about Jean-Paul Nungesser raping them.

Why is it so hard for people to realize that they have no idea what they are talking about? Brian and DIB are ****ing invested in this ****, they appear to be sincerely defensive that they are getting pushback! But you have to know at some level you're just making it up, because when you talk about stuff it's not coming from the part of your brain that remembers facts you've learned.

Again DIB and Brian are so immensely stupid they don't even understand the concept well enough to understand the questions for specifics. I think, at this point, it's pretty clear that they aren't refusing to provide specifics out of spite or whatever, I think their brains are literally incapable of grasping the concept of specifics.

"Do the mandated reporting on the colleges!"

"Ok? I'm not quite sure what you mean. Who is reporting What? How? When? Why? What problem are we trying to solve here, and what mechanism is proposed to solve it?"

"OMG read up for yourself! Do the mandated reporting! It's a report that is MANDATED!"