Regardless of what I was about to respond with, it's the acceptance of the violent riots as an OK form of protest that creates racists out of otherwise normal people. Burning things down, looting, hurting people, hatred against whites, are simply not OK in spite of the context.

That's a separate topic, and while I respect you engaging me in real conversation (and truly appreciate it), this is the first time I'm inserting my own personal opinion here. That point sounds to me like "we'll we can't burn things and hurt people, so you have to accept our disrespect of your whole country and belief system." I'd be lying to you if I didn't say this sounds ridiculous to me. I don't mean that disrespectfully towards you, but how do you justify that ultimatum?

You're reading it wrong then. I implore you to find anybody in this thread who agrees with looting and burning and anything else that may have taken place in Charlotte.

You also have to realize, that as a whole the Charlotte protests WERE peaceful. I mentioned in my above post the people saying that protests cannot be done as if people are savages and animals. The people who are saying those things aren't arguing in good faith. They are performing a dogwhistle to say "ALL of the Charlotte protests involved riots, and looting, and savagery" which just isn't true. There will almost always be a portion of large scale protests that turn into that type of behavior, and as you have seen in this thread, and even from those at those protests, the people that engage in such behavior are talked about in a negative way. They are condemned, and rightly so.

So when I mention the people that say "You cannot protest like savages, and you cannot protest peacefullly like Kaep" they are engaging in a false narrative, and it is divisive dogwhistling to make people who are not tuned in to what is going on believe that that is ALL that is occurring in Charlotte.

The division in this country is not from those who think there are some bad things and we should stand up and say no and demand better of our country. The division comes from those who willfully engage in proclaiming that that which is false is in fact the truth. It comes from those who are so fully down the rabbit hole of anti-intellectualism that there is no way out. It comes from those who have decided that their thoughts and their feelings trump what is reality.

How do those who are protesting to make things better ever hope to counter that? They do what they can. Kaep does what he can. He takes his prominence and his visiblity and uses it to start a discussion, then donates the money that he earns from starting that discussion to groups that can help press the message further.

These people are not asking for a lot Low, they really aren't. An equal spot at the table that they have served as lap dogs to for centuries is not a lot to ask, and yet no matter what way they decide to ask for it, they are smacked on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and told 'NO! BAD DOG!"

You smack a dog on the nose enough and eventually it will bite, and that dog isn't being divisive. He is fighting against divisiveness through instinct. He is doing what he can to try to make sense of the craziness of the world that keep smacking him in the face again and again and telling him he is bad, when he just wants to be like us.

This is the vicious circle of the internalized racism of a country built upon our values, and it should not be any surprise when one of them looks at the flag that represents ALL that this country was built upon and all it still remains and says "Yeah, that just doesn't seem right. Why should I salute the thing that has kept me oppressed for so long and continues to do so. It wants my salute, it wants my respect? Maybe once it respects me, I can be happy doing so. Until then, I simply refuse."

That is Kaep's message, and whether it spits in the face of those who have fought for the flag or not is irrelevant. Becuase they arent fighting now to make sure that that flag represents ALL of the people who stand up and salute it and sing to it at every game. Sure, they've done their part, and we are grateful. But the battle is not done yet, and expecting them to be good dogs and sit up and put their paw over their heart while a person with that flag emblazoned on their chest continues to smack them in the nose with his newspaper... it should not be a surprise that that dog decides to curl up and catch a few Z's instead.

the jingoes ate my baby

Have you even considered that when you/they/ya'll say things like this, you might actually be the one/s disrespecting my country and my belief system.
Wasn't our country founded on protest and not flag worship? You think a flag was made and people sat around idolizing it and THAT's what won the revolution?

You people want to co-opt and patent american pride when you're distinctly unamerican in the eyes of many.

I honestly don't think that as someone considered white in America, I'm allowed to respond to or even to have an opinion on most of what you just wrote. Thanks for the great conversation, and this is where I get off. GL.

Fair enough man. Fwiw, I am also white. But I'm not blind to the plight of my friends.

Now that's just silly. Kaep is protesting, and people are defending, what the flag and anthem REPRESENT, not the music snd the rectangle themselves. And, thank you, I haven't been called "you people" in about a decade. I forgot what it felt like. And what kind of name is Fiveive anyway?

Here's what I posted:

Bold : Part that addresses what you upper-cased, REPRESENTation.

Nonbold : Part you responded to, while ignoring the bold.


Are you honestly confused and didn't realize I was speaking of REPRESENTation, one level deeper?

I came across an anti-Kaepernick position that seemed reasonable and defensible. It's at least better than the jingoistic pablum being spewed by most of his detractors. I can't remember where I read it so I'll paraphrase:

American has many problems, and many injustices that need to be addressed. So in that sense, Kaepernick's protest is fully justified. But the national anthem is meant to be a moment of community and solidarity, a commitment to our shared values. This is partly what makes the protest so meaningful, but that solidarity is the thing that's going to help solve those problems. So for that moment, maybe only for that moment, I'm willing to set aside all the things that are wrong with America and stand up and celebrate all the things that are right with America.

(I guess it's not even really "anti-Kaep" so much as "why I wouldn't join the protest")

This is such an ignorant response.

LowSociety makes some great points and is absolutely correct. You just can't handle the truth.

I mean, I agree that you both think that pointing out the issues of unfair racial treatment of minorities, specifically by law enforcement, is somehow doing more harm to the country as a whole than the positives that can be gained for those being oppressed.

I agree that you think it's easier to say "lol no one is being oppressed" than it is to actually use your critical thinking skills for thirty seconds.

last time I'll link this, I promise

Remember, the stated purpose of the C.Kaepernick inspired protests is to "start a conversation". Anyone who has started talking, and who isn't against Kaepernick's actual concerns, is engaging in conversation. That's a #win. Most whining about the pro athletes doing these protests have been along has been along the lines of "I understand/favor what they're protesting about, I just don't like the methods". This is a double #win#win, these people are (or where) persuaded... and they are now having conversation too.

Even our veterans protesting in Boardman OH are furthering these pro athlete protests. Sure, their stated reasons for marching are (a) against an owner's legal right to run his private company as he pleases, and (b) against the very principle of free speech they are themselves exercising. And what are they accomplishing? Well, when peeps see protests against capitalism and free speech, they are going to necessarily wonder why. When they find out... bang, they're involved in conversation. Still another #win.

You have an auditorium full of white people who know that if they stand up they will be considered racist. It's a heck of a lot easier to to just sit there and not cause any waves. I guarantee if we took this lame experiment a step further and planted a white person in the audience who stood up, others would have followed.

How come there is not Mexican lives matter? or Asian lives matter? or Indian lives matter? Aren't these folks being "oppressed as well"? Does the black community have a monopoly on oppression?

I've said it before, you train people how to treat you. If your reputation precedes you and if you act like a certain stereotype you will be treated as such.

I went to a Black Sabbath concert the other day and saw some of the scumiest, white trash I've ever seen in my life. If the question came up would I want to be treated like them the answer would be no. If you're acting like white trash, chances are your gonna be treated like white trash.

If the lady in this video rephrased the question to...How many of you would want to be treated like a successful, educated, law abiding black person, I would expect most to have stood up.

This is a really intellectually dishonest rebuttal. You don't tell a breast cancer awareness speaker to shut up because there other types of cancer to worry about as well. It doesn't make breast cancer not a thing and it doesn't make the efforts to advance awareness/solutions useless.

You didn't answer the question!

That's because he doesn't actually care about any other groups lives.

Your stance on this whole thing is "Blacks shouldn't behave so badly if they want to be treated like everyone else". I don't know if we have a whole lot to say to each other at this point.

If anybody of any color wants to be treated well they should not behave badly. Everything you here from the left is how bad the cops are, how racist the white people are.

The biggest threat to the black community isnt racism, it's the high number of single parent families. This lack of parental supervision leads to the development of had bad habits by the youth.

This is why i keep saying stop trying to control your outer environment and focus on making positive changes from within.

How do you propose we lessen single family homes? I'm sure you are a huge proponent of spending government money on better sex education and abortion, right?

Greetings NFL fans, and welcome to Week #6... of the Kaepernick Kronicles that is. It's week#4 of the regular season. Well, it seems fears that the C.Kaepernick inspired protests were fizzling out were misplaced. There was a great leap forward in protests for week#5. Eight new teams jumped in, including the Boardman Vets. Individual protests were also up by 24. For those keeping score at home, so far we have...

NFL Team, Counter	#1	#2	#3	#4	#5	Total
Seahawks		B	A53	A53	A53	160
Falcons					A53	53
Saints					A53	53
Chefs			A52,F			53
Boardman Vets					M~24	24
49ers	B	K2	F2,K2	F4,K2	F5,K3	21
Dolphins			K4	K3	K3	10
Titans			F3	F2	F4	9
Chargers				F2	F5	7
Eagles				F3	F2	5
Broncos			K	K	F,K	4
Rams			F2	F	F	4
Jaguars					F4	4
Washington					F4	4
Raiders					F2	2
Panthers					F,S	2
Patriots			F2			2
Colts					K	1
Total	1	3	122	71	221	418

^{By week. A=Arms/hands, B=Butt, F=Fist, K=Knee, M=March, S=Shirt.}

• TNF, 5:25 pdt: Dolphins @Bengals. The Dolphins lead the league in knees with 10. The Bengals are virgins.
• Sunday, 0-dark-30, 6:30 am: Colts -vs- Jaguars @London. Both teams scored in week#5. Will they score on the foreign turf of Wembley Stadium?
• Sunday, morning, 10:01: Seven games. Featured game is... Lions @Bears. Only virgin -vs- virgin match up on Sunday.
• Sunday, afternoon, 1:05 or 1:25: Four games. Featured game is... Cowboys @49ers, of course. The Boardman Vets whipped the 49ers 24-8 in week#5, can they do it again? Will the Cowboys break their virgin?
• SNF, 5:30: Chefs @Steelers. The Chefs haven't scored since week#3. The Steelers are virgins.
• MNF, 5:30: Giants @Vikings. The other virgin -vs- virgin match up.

It's a cultural problem. There will need to be paradigmic attitudinal shifts.

Many black men have the gangster mentallity. They live it by having sex with as many women as possible. They obviously dont stick around for the consequenses because having a family doesn't fit in with their lifestyle. Rap lyrics promote this attitude.

The government enables this type of behavior by over compensating these people with food stamps and other entitlements....I think some sort of educational requirements should be attached to benefits.

Criminal justice reform would help to keep more black fathers out of prison.

Ive heard from black friends that black women are mean and that black men would prefer to be with white women.

Have better self control. 80% of black women are single mothers.

And do you have any... I dunno, evidence? To support anything you just posted?

Wait wait I just read that again. You said 80% of black women are single mothers. I doubt 80% of any group of women are even mothers. What a completely ****ing wrong statement. You source that **** first

What he means is that 72% of African-American births are "non-marital" which is of course not quite the same thing, but true.

Amazing to acknowledge that too many black men are in prison and then turn around immediately and blame black mothers for being so single.

Also I have it on good authority that lots of white men are also having sex with as many women as possible.

It's probably worth reading what Gregg Popovich thinks about national anthem protests.