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Old 05-09-2017, 03:55 PM   #226
juan valdez
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Re: Gender pay gap

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Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
I searched for "gender gap maternity leave study" on Google. The first result was:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ender-pay-gap/

which is interesting, but doesn't relate to your point.

I also found this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/bu...nequality.html

which also doesn't say that women earned more prior to maternity leave. This Google search was a dead end.

I decided to Google your exact wording "women earn more than men before maternity leave." This turned up the study discussed here about the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...ge-study-finds

in which UK women in their mid to late twenties are shown to earn slightly more than men of the same age on average, before a sizable gap the emerges the other way beyond age 30. Although the authors of the study do not cite maternity leave as an explanation, this op ed on the study attributes the difference to motherhood.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors.../#b7b70463ef25
im not sure if it was a typo or a post got deleted but i was referencing post 205 in the previous post

ok now we have studies showing what i claimed they showed. now what? i said they existed. i was called a liar. now what? do you really think this is going to spawn any discussion or anyone retracting the liar comment? of course not

theres also studies showing a gender gap in higher education now. women are doing much better. let me guess..... cite? ..... im a liar? having common knowledge or you can easily google before acting like a dope? pay attention to who i was responding to and their posting habits

http://content.time.com/time/busines...015274,00.html

Quote:
Here's the slightly deflating caveat: this reverse gender gap, as it's known, applies only to unmarried, childless women under 30 who live in cities. The rest of working women — even those of the same age, but who are married or don't live in a major metropolitan area — are still on the less scenic side of the wage divide.

The figures come from James Chung of Reach Advisors, who has spent more than a year analyzing data from the Census Bureau's American Community Survey. He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do. This is almost the exact opposite of the graduation ratio that existed when the baby boomers entered college. Studies have consistently shown that a college degree pays off in much higher wages over a lifetime, and even in many cases for entry-level positions.
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Old 05-09-2017, 03:58 PM   #227
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Re: Gender pay gap

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Originally Posted by whosnext View Post

The forum has a clear rule pertaining to situations such as this:

7) Citations. If posters make a claim without a citation in a Content thread and are then challenged by other posters then the initial post will not be deleted but the claim should not be repeated or defended without a credible source being provided.

i asked you two very straight forward questions. if you're going to participate, participate. if not, even better
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:09 PM   #228
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Re: Gender pay gap

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Originally Posted by juan valdez View Post
i asked you two very straight forward questions. if you're going to participate, participate. if not, even better
Lol. Juan is the gift that keeps on giving.
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:09 PM   #229
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Re: Gender pay gap

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Lol. Juan is the gift that keeps on giving.
He has definitely improved his trolling skills for mo bettah laughs.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:43 PM   #230
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Re: Gender pay gap

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Originally Posted by juan valdez View Post
im not sure if it was a typo or a post got deleted but i was referencing post 205 in the previous post

ok now we have studies showing what i claimed they showed. now what? i said they existed. i was called a liar. now what? do you really think this is going to spawn any discussion or anyone retracting the liar comment? of course not

theres also studies showing a gender gap in higher education now. women are doing much better. let me guess..... cite? ..... im a liar? having common knowledge or you can easily google before acting like a dope? pay attention to who i was responding to and their posting habits

http://content.time.com/time/busines...015274,00.html
Women getting paid more because they have better/more education is what I'd expect. No one objects to men with better/more education getting paid more than women.

BTW, you should pay ATC for doing your homework for you.
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Old 05-10-2017, 01:03 PM   #231
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Re: Gender pay gap

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Originally Posted by whosnext View Post
Let's at least understand what the Equal Pay Act in the United States mandates. The law requires companies to have equal pay by gender for equal work in similar working conditions in the same working establishment.

Here is a list of factors that allow a company to have unequal pay:
- seniority
- education
- work experience
- quality of work
- quantity of work
- work effort
- work skill
- work responsibility
- merit
- any other factor the company deems important (other than gender)
- does not apply to management employees
- does not apply to professional employees
- does not apply to administrative employees.

It should be obvious to all that the exclusions list above is highly problematic. Many of the exclusions can be used to perpetuate unequal pay. In addition, many of the exclusions are "perceptual" in nature and therefore can be used (intentionally or unintentionally) to perpetuate unequal pay.

At this point in time, the Equal Pay Act is largely a symbolic law. A very important symbolic law, but largely symbolic nonetheless.

Nobody can argue that the Equal Pay Act alone can eliminate the gender pay gap. Nobody can argue that the Equal Pay Act alone can eliminate gender pay discrimination.
Which of these exclusions would you have them eliminate, and why?
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:02 PM   #232
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by microbet View Post
Something like the 77 cents on the dollar stat is misleading, but that's an idiotic reason to be a Trumpkin or even generic Republican. The use of stats by the left and right are apples and oranges and the right is using a bunch of really putrid apples. It's not even close. The people who use it (the interest groups themselves vs. the actual administrations), the scope, the frequency, and the unapologetic misuse, distortions, and lies from the GOP are in a totally different league. It's the difference between looking to phrase things in a way that benefit your interest and being misleading vs. manufacturing lies on an industrial scale.
If women get paid less than men for the same work, why don't corporations hire all women and destroy the competition? Oh right, because corporations are more concerned with being misogynist than with making profit. Thomas Sowell is an African-American economist, so you can't accuse him of racism ( I mean he obviously hates women with a passion to be saying this though, right? Cause reality is ****ing hateful).

You should look up what he has to say about the wage gap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EK6Y1X_xa4
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:13 PM   #233
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by DoOrDoNot View Post
If women get paid less than men for the same work, why don't corporations hire all women and destroy the competition?
They'd get sued for employment discrimination.

Also of course because for the most part corporations aren't interested in maximizing profits by intentionally discriminating against either women or men.

Last edited by well named; 07-05-2017 at 04:16 PM. Reason: added the word intentionally
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:15 PM   #234
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by well named View Post
They'd get sued for employment discrimination.

Also of course because for the most part corporations aren't interested in maximizing profits by discriminating against either women or men.
Like Hooters?
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:16 PM   #235
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Re: President Trump

Hooters is a pretty clearly a special case. Most companies products/services are not explicitly tied to the gender of their employees.

Stuff like this is why I said "for the most part"
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:29 PM   #236
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by well named View Post
They'd get sued for employment discrimination.

Also of course because for the most part corporations aren't interested in maximizing profits by intentionally discriminating against either women or men.
Ok so their discrimination against women is unintentional then?
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:31 PM   #237
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by well named View Post
Hooters is a pretty clearly a special case. Most companies products/services are not explicitly tied to the gender of their employees.

Stuff like this is why I said "for the most part"
Anyone who has run a company would disagree with you. I certainly wouldn't be hiring many women for my heavy construction company, for example, or many men for my babysitting project. For the most part, the wage gap is a disproved myth.
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:33 PM   #238
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by DoOrDoNot View Post
Ok so their discrimination against women is unintentional then?
To the extent that the wage gap is (in part) caused by discrimination, it's pretty likely it mostly involves more implicit and subtle biases than outright intent to discriminate. For example, in the past I've cited the example of PWC in the UK, and what happened there after they began to more explicitly measure their wage gaps. That story is included in this article. I think it's an instructive example.

Last edited by well named; 07-05-2017 at 04:38 PM. Reason: moved thread, removed redundant link
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:34 PM   #239
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Re: President Trump

Come on WN. We know what happened at PWC. You're smarter than that dude.
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:41 PM   #240
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by well named View Post
To the extent that the wage gap is (in part) caused by discrimination, it's pretty likely it mostly involves more implicit and subtle biases than outright intent to discriminate.
You assumed this conclusion. The fact is that reality discriminates. Discrimination is a good thing in certain senses, for example discriminating between a partner who is likely to be disloyal and one that isn't.

Women and men are, in general, suited to different things with regards to employment. That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions to the rule, or that everyone who wants to should be able to pick their careers how they choose. But if a 5'4" skinny white guy wants to play professional basketball he has to go in realizing he is at a disadvantage, and he is going to have to be better at everyone at a lot of things in order to be competitive. He doesn't whine and cry and complain and lobby for laws to be passed against height-discrimination in the NBA.
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:42 PM   #241
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by DoOrDoNot View Post
I certainly wouldn't be hiring many women for my heavy construction company, for example, or many men for my babysitting project.
If you refused to hire any men for your babysitting job solely on the basis that they were men and you think men are incapable of providing child care, then that would be employment discrimination, and so both illegal and in my opinion immoral.

If you refused to hire a woman for your construction job because she was physically incapable of doing the job, that would not be employment discrimination, and is perfectly reasonable. If you refused to hire any women for your construction job, even ones who were able to demonstrate their physical capacity for the job, then you would again be discriminating both illegally and immorally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoOrDoNot View Post
For the most part, the wage gap is a disproved myth.
I've been around the block on this topic too many times recently to feel like doing it again. If you scroll back through this thread you'll find links, both to research on the wage gap as well as explanations about said research.
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:43 PM   #242
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Re: Gender pay gap

Obama's white house had a 20% wage gap. Who'd have thought Obama hated women so much?
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Old 07-05-2017, 05:12 PM   #243
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by well named View Post
I've been around the block on this topic too many times recently to feel like doing it again. If you scroll back through this thread you'll find links, both to research on the wage gap as well as explanations about said research.
To be clear. I mean that I'm not up to starting from scratch. If you take the time to go back and see some of the posts and want to jump in and respond to something, I'm happy to engage then. Unfortunately, things are spread out across different threads, so it's a bit of a pain. Or if you want to elaborate on what it means to you to say that the wage gap is mostly a disproved myth.

It is likely at some point I'm going to refer you to this 2016 overview of research on the wage gap, so I'll just get it out of the way.
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Old 07-05-2017, 07:01 PM   #244
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by well named View Post
If you refused to hire any men for your babysitting job solely on the basis that they were men and you think men are incapable of providing child care, then that would be employment discrimination, and so both illegal and
And of course no one in their right mind would do such a thing, which is why the legislation is absolutely pointless anyway.

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n my opinion immoral.
Because you don't see the subtleties of reality, or because you believe untrue things about reality (that we are all equal, for example). In my opinion it's positively necessary for employers to discriminate. You wouldn't want a pedophile working at a daycare, you wouldn't want a tiny woman in a prison guard role, and you wouldn't want a 6'8", 350 lb man for a jockey.

Quote:
If you refused to hire a woman for your construction job because she was physically incapable of doing the job, that would not be employment discrimination, and is perfectly reasonable. If you refused to hire any women for your construction job, even ones who were able to demonstrate their physical capacity for the job, then you would again be discriminating both illegally and immorally.
If a woman could do the job on the same level of competence as a man, then discrimination would indeed be immoral. However, if a man can do the same job better, no employer in their right mind would hire the woman, and rightly so. Same thing goes for employers that hire women over men because they are better suited, which happens every day. And indeed if an employer refuses to hire a better qualified woman or man simply because of their sex/color/race/sexual orientation/religion/social justice cause 1678, it is to the employers sole detriment.



Quote:
I've been around the block on this topic too many times recently to feel like doing it again. If you scroll back through this thread you'll find links, both to research on the wage gap as well as explanations about said research.
I can find research on google that the earth is flat or the moon landing didn't happen. It has no bearing on reality.

Last edited by DoOrDoNot; 07-05-2017 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 07-06-2017, 04:20 PM   #245
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by DoOrDoNot View Post
I can find research on google that the earth is flat or the moon landing didn't happen. It has no bearing on reality.
Just to be clear, the position you're taking is that all research is not to be trusted because conspiracy theorists exist and that, therefore, we can only argue based on our personal feelings and guesses about what might be happening in the world?
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Old 07-06-2017, 04:38 PM   #246
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Re: Gender pay gap

Well, on the one hand you have an academic article co-written by Francine Blau and Lawrence Kahn -- professors of economics at Cornell -- and published by the National Bureau of Economic Research. It refers to dozens of other academic publications over a couple of decades. On the other hand you have some guy's youtube channel.

Six of one, half dozen of the other obviously.
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Old 07-06-2017, 04:55 PM   #247
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Re: Gender pay gap

The entire internet is invalid because look at DoOrDoNot's posts.
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Old 07-06-2017, 05:38 PM   #248
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Re: Gender pay gap

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm voting Do Not.
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Old 07-06-2017, 06:57 PM   #249
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by DoOrDoNot View Post
And of course no one in their right mind would do such a thing, which is why the legislation is absolutely pointless anyway.
This is too facile. Employers don't have perfect information about how applicants will perform as employees. This often means that they will make decisions about who to hire based on (let's assume accurate) stereotypes. But let's say you are a person who runs counter to a negative stereotype. You will probably have a more difficult time getting hired than the person who is in line with the positive stereotype, because you have to not only show that you are qualified, but also overcome the negative stereotype.

Quote:
Because you don't see the subtleties of reality, or because you believe untrue things about reality (that we are all equal, for example). In my opinion it's positively necessary for employers to discriminate. You wouldn't want a pedophile working at a daycare, you wouldn't want a tiny woman in a prison guard role, and you wouldn't want a 6'8", 350 lb man for a jockey.
No one here has claimed this.

Quote:
If a woman could do the job on the same level of competence as a man, then discrimination would indeed be immoral. However, if a man can do the same job better, no employer in their right mind would hire the woman, and rightly so. Same thing goes for employers that hire women over men because they are better suited, which happens every day. And indeed if an employer refuses to hire a better qualified woman or man simply because of their sex/color/race/sexual orientation/religion/social justice cause 1678, it is to the employers sole detriment.
You are overly focused on firm-level analysis here. For instance, there are many more men who work in tech fields than women. To some extent, this is explained by the fact that there are many more men that study tech fields in college. So when a tech firm makes a hiring decision, they can use a completely blind process and still end up with a gender imbalance, because the pool of male applicants is larger. However, this doesn't explain why more men than women study tech subjects in college (or earlier). This educational imbalance is not necessarily subject to market forces, so it isn't clear that those making decisions leading to this educational imbalance are bearing any cost for it (I'm not assuming any particular reason for this educational imbalance here, including whether or not it is natural).

Also, I'll point out that this is kind of discrimination is not to the employer's sole detriment - the job applicant also pays a cost.
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Old 07-06-2017, 06:59 PM   #250
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Re: President Trump

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Originally Posted by TiltedDonkey View Post
Just to be clear, the position you're taking is that all research is not to be trusted because conspiracy theorists exist and that, therefore, we can only argue based on our personal feelings and guesses about what might be happening in the world?
No my position is that 1. Academia is infused with progressivist rhetoric 2. Anyone can find myriad 'studies' verifying their position, regardless of their side.

The fact is no one assaults the logic I use because it is unassailable. The scandinavian countries, which have the greatest 'gender equality' in the world, have seen even LESS women entering high paying stem professions than they did before when they were 'treated unfairly by the system.' There's a clear reason. In general they care less about high paying career fields than men do. There might be a wage gap, but a. legislation doesn't cure it b. it's not because the system is misogynist.

Liberals draw emotional conclusions like this all the time, throw a hissy fit, lobby for legislation to change what they believe should be the outcome of a fair system, and then continue to ***** and complain when it's proven beyond any doubt their pre-determined conclusion about the nature of society was false. People with common sense are frankly sick of it, which is why you have Donald Trump in the white house and see a general walking away from progressive agendas in western nations. You're full of **** regardless of how many studies you cite, and everyone knows it but you.

Last edited by DoOrDoNot; 07-06-2017 at 07:05 PM.
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