Discussion about Discussion Thread
05-31-2017
, 01:13 PM
06-05-2017
, 03:50 PM
06-06-2017
, 11:11 AM
06-11-2017
, 08:04 PM
Quote:
Two things as I see it. First, we'd need to see if there is any buy-in from both the general posters and the mods. If nobody cares, then nothing is going to change.
Second, I'd figure analyzing what actually makes these conversations go off the rails, and crafting rules that make some of the more high volume of those derailing sequences somewhat harder to pull off, would be the general process to follow.
Second, I'd figure analyzing what actually makes these conversations go off the rails, and crafting rules that make some of the more high volume of those derailing sequences somewhat harder to pull off, would be the general process to follow.
Quote:
LMFAO@ this fool quoting Proudhon. ZOMG ACers are the worst. Speaking of ACism, as the 2+2 resident expert, I was presenting a series of lessons on ACism, back a while ago. Here is Lesson #8, which I've had "in the can"...
Good morning ACers & 'statist's, and welcome back to Rape Town University,
It's Friday, and it was supposed to be ACers choice today. However, all the ACers have gone missing except for Proph, and he declined to choose a topic. So... welcome to Lesson #8: Crime and Punishment.
OK, we've covered where the laws come from. There's the ACland constitution. Below that there's case law from the court system. However the vast majority of the laws peeps will be forced to follow will be written as Administrative Law by large scale landlords. Note: Small scale landowners, for example individual home owners, would probably just use the default trespassing law in the constitution instead.
OK, how are laws enforced? Well, we've already discussed the DROs. They are the equivalent of a Marshal's service, acting only on court orders, and using fundamentally offensive violence, such as evictions. The number of goons employed doing DRO work will be dwarfed by several orders of magnitude by ordinary Security goons. Security goons do fundamentally defensive violence: loss prevention, site security, and frontline rules enforcement on their landlord's property. Landlords can assemble their own Security goon army, or outsource to ADT. Likewise ADT might sell both DRO goon services (with proper court order), and also Security goon services (no stinking courts needed).
OK, so how would this all work? Let's say your landlord had a law against smoking pot. You're out front of your home, smoking a J, and the Landlord Police roll on you. It's your first alleged offense, so the goons just issues you a summons to Landlord Court. Let's say you are ultimately convicted. What's your punishment?
Here ACland starts to get a little weirder.
Over in RealityLand we have the distinction between criminal and civil court. In modern civil court, you can ask for basically three remedies: legal tender $$$$, ordering somebody to stop doing something (like stop parking in the wrong places), or ordering someone to do something (like a slumlord fixing the plumbing). However, just because you ask, and you win in court, doesn't mean the judge will give you all you asked for. That's up to the judge.
Over in ACland, we ain't got no legal tender. However, you can ask for a whole lot of other remedies: gear, gold, beatings, torture, maimings, rape, death, and enslavement, along with ordering somebody to do something, and ordering somebody not to do something. However, just because you ask, and you win in court, doesn't mean the judge will give you all you asked for. That's up to the judge.
So right away, I know the 'statist's are going to have a whole lotta questions: Like could a Landlord make a law which punishes pot smoking by death? Could the landlord just change the law on me? Could he just sneak in the death penalty into the fine print? How about travelling about, when I crossed onto another landlords property, could he have snuck a death penalty into his laws?
The answer to all these questions is "no". Why? Because of common law, and the ACland constitution. Common law implies rule-of-law, and rule-of-law requires those subject to law to have a way to discover what that law is. So landlords would have to give constructive notice to the renters. So, no sneaking laws into fine print, or changing them without notice. For extreme penalties, like death, the renters would need to initial a contract explicitly. A renter who innocently crossed into another landlord's property and violated a non-obvious law would need to be given a warning, or nominal penalty at first, etc.
OK, but what if a renter explicitly signed the death contract, but then forgot, and got convicted of smoking a J anyways. Can the landlord have him killed? Once again, the answer is "no". That's because enshrined in the ACland constitution is both the nature of, and a limit to, punishments under AC law: Double Proportional Reciprocity. A death penalty for smoking a J isn't proportional, and any such law would be ruled unconstitutional.
Good morning ACers & 'statist's, and welcome back to Rape Town University,
It's Friday, and it was supposed to be ACers choice today. However, all the ACers have gone missing except for Proph, and he declined to choose a topic. So... welcome to Lesson #8: Crime and Punishment.
OK, we've covered where the laws come from. There's the ACland constitution. Below that there's case law from the court system. However the vast majority of the laws peeps will be forced to follow will be written as Administrative Law by large scale landlords. Note: Small scale landowners, for example individual home owners, would probably just use the default trespassing law in the constitution instead.
OK, how are laws enforced? Well, we've already discussed the DROs. They are the equivalent of a Marshal's service, acting only on court orders, and using fundamentally offensive violence, such as evictions. The number of goons employed doing DRO work will be dwarfed by several orders of magnitude by ordinary Security goons. Security goons do fundamentally defensive violence: loss prevention, site security, and frontline rules enforcement on their landlord's property. Landlords can assemble their own Security goon army, or outsource to ADT. Likewise ADT might sell both DRO goon services (with proper court order), and also Security goon services (no stinking courts needed).
OK, so how would this all work? Let's say your landlord had a law against smoking pot. You're out front of your home, smoking a J, and the Landlord Police roll on you. It's your first alleged offense, so the goons just issues you a summons to Landlord Court. Let's say you are ultimately convicted. What's your punishment?
Here ACland starts to get a little weirder.
Over in RealityLand we have the distinction between criminal and civil court. In modern civil court, you can ask for basically three remedies: legal tender $$$$, ordering somebody to stop doing something (like stop parking in the wrong places), or ordering someone to do something (like a slumlord fixing the plumbing). However, just because you ask, and you win in court, doesn't mean the judge will give you all you asked for. That's up to the judge.
Over in ACland, we ain't got no legal tender. However, you can ask for a whole lot of other remedies: gear, gold, beatings, torture, maimings, rape, death, and enslavement, along with ordering somebody to do something, and ordering somebody not to do something. However, just because you ask, and you win in court, doesn't mean the judge will give you all you asked for. That's up to the judge.
So right away, I know the 'statist's are going to have a whole lotta questions: Like could a Landlord make a law which punishes pot smoking by death? Could the landlord just change the law on me? Could he just sneak in the death penalty into the fine print? How about travelling about, when I crossed onto another landlords property, could he have snuck a death penalty into his laws?
The answer to all these questions is "no". Why? Because of common law, and the ACland constitution. Common law implies rule-of-law, and rule-of-law requires those subject to law to have a way to discover what that law is. So landlords would have to give constructive notice to the renters. So, no sneaking laws into fine print, or changing them without notice. For extreme penalties, like death, the renters would need to initial a contract explicitly. A renter who innocently crossed into another landlord's property and violated a non-obvious law would need to be given a warning, or nominal penalty at first, etc.
OK, but what if a renter explicitly signed the death contract, but then forgot, and got convicted of smoking a J anyways. Can the landlord have him killed? Once again, the answer is "no". That's because enshrined in the ACland constitution is both the nature of, and a limit to, punishments under AC law: Double Proportional Reciprocity. A death penalty for smoking a J isn't proportional, and any such law would be ruled unconstitutional.
- OK, let's do some examples: Get caught steeling $10, you owe the victim $20. Knock a dude's tooth out, he gets to pull two of yours out. Rape someone, they can have you raped twice. Falsely enslave someone, you can be made their slave for twice as long. Beat someone, they can have you beaten twice as long/hard. Torture someone, ditto.
- But it's not always double... poke someone's eye out, it'd wouldn't be proportional to blind you completely, maybe just take an eye and an ear. Put someone in a wheelchair, well they can't put you in the chair twice, but they could cut a hand off, and then put you in the chair, etc. Also, a landlord would need to be able to escalate punishments over 2x for repeat offenders... to avoid the situation where the initial penalty isn't severe enough to stop the misbehavior. Like... on your third conviction for smoking a J, then maybe you get enslaved for a year or two.
- OK, let's take a more indepth example: Proph is out drunk driving, causes an accident, and Kerowo loses a finger. Which two of Proph's fingers does Kerowo get?
Spoiler:
Perhaps ST is not a 'good' poster but merely an expert on posting. I dunno. I think it's a legitimate question though.
06-11-2017
, 08:42 PM
06-11-2017
, 08:51 PM
06-11-2017
, 09:21 PM
06-11-2017
, 09:38 PM
06-11-2017
, 11:14 PM
06-25-2017
, 12:38 PM
06-25-2017
, 01:29 PM
06-25-2017
, 01:39 PM
06-25-2017
, 01:46 PM
06-25-2017
, 01:48 PM
06-25-2017
, 02:48 PM
06-25-2017
, 03:00 PM
06-25-2017
, 03:11 PM
06-25-2017
, 05:46 PM
06-25-2017
, 06:36 PM
Good1. Everyone knows who Teh Jabber-Wookie is.
So, under your own 'logic'... if Teh Jabber-Wookie, being the Special Snowflake he is known to be, gets triggered, it's zero-zip-zilch% his fault when he starts spewing his typical gibberish. We need to lay the blame where it is deserved. Blame the instigator not the responder. Blame the criminal, not the cop. Etc etc.
Do I understand you correctly ?
?
So, under your own 'logic'... if Teh Jabber-Wookie, being the Special Snowflake he is known to be, gets triggered, it's zero-zip-zilch% his fault when he starts spewing his typical gibberish. We need to lay the blame where it is deserved. Blame the instigator not the responder. Blame the criminal, not the cop. Etc etc.
Do I understand you correctly ?
?
