I was just saying that we should have more respect for nature including scallops and chickens and fish ect ect. If we dont we face dire consequences.

You must kill one. Choose: adult chimpanzee or infant human with severe mental ******ation.

I think you chose wisely

Global Livestock Counts

Quote:

THE world's average stock of chickens is almost 19 billion, or three per person, according to statistics from the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation. Cattle are the next most populous breed of farm animal at 1.4 billion, with sheep and pigs not far behind at around 1 billion. China's vast appetite helps make it the world leader in the number of chickens, pigs and sheep, whereas beef-loving Brazil and cow-revering India have the greatest number of cattle. Expressed as livestock per person, New Zealand lives up to its reputation as the world's most productive shepherd, with 7.5 sheep for each New Zealander. It is also the second biggest cattle herdsman, with the equivalent of 2.3 cows per person, second only to Uruguay's 3.7. For chickens, Brunei rules the roost, counting 40 birds for every person.

I wonder how these animal populations would fare if humans didn't eat them? I'm guessing there wouldn't be as many, not even close.

Of course intelligence matters. Even if you limit it to only animals with brains, there's a huge range from tiny rudimentary brains of worms to advanced brains of primates and aquatic mammals.

We can't possibly know how "pain" or "fear" is experienced by any of these other brains, but we can make educated guesses. When humans feel fear, it's at least partially tied up with awareness of self, the future, and death. Without self-awareness and conciousness, an animal in fear is experiencing something so primal and foreign we can't even imagine it. Philosophy students may be familiar with What Is it Like to Be a Bat?

The reason we care more about the suffering of primates and dolphins is they have been shown to have self-awareness (limited) and rich emotional lives similar in kind, if not degree, to our own. Killing a chimp is depriving it of a meaningful future. Spraying a roach isn't going to cause "fear" or "suffering" in any sense that matters. Cows and chickens are somewhere in between. Personally, when given a choice between bird (chicken, turkey) and mammal (beef, pork), I usually choose to eat bird.

Hyperbole much? Do you actually believe this?

I do. Dead zones in the Ocean are getting bigger every year. There is a great extinction happening right now caused by us.

If we dont change soon the chain will collapse and being on top of the chain puts us in real danger.

I'm certain there'd be less of these animals if we didn't raise them like they were vegetables.

I fail to see the problem with that, though. Less animal waste, less arable land used for producing crops to feed them, less land used to store them, less chance of quickly developing antibiotic-resistant germs and whatnot.

What is the plus side of there being a lot of chickens? Do chickens inherently feel better knowing that there's a ton of chickens alive?

(And yes, I know you could easily ask that same question for humans)

Mollusk farming objectively helps the ocean ecosystem.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29418983

That makes all sorts of sense, and I'm inclined to agree with it; however,

1) we don't follow it very well. Most people would rather kill a wolf than a chipmunk, a rat than a butterfly. Factors such as danger to humans, nuisance, and cuteness often override any difference in intelligence or awareness between animals when we choose our victims. And those are only a few. We've already discussed tastiness, endangeredness, pets, and have yet to get into phobias and religious reasons for killing certain animals or not.

2) A bit weaker criticism, probably, but why do we value so much that dolphins and chimps can experience things more like us? Isn't that pretty humancentric of us to think that these very few species who have randomly developed intelligence and self awareness are so much more special than the billions of others who live there lives differently and experience the world in a way we can't understand?

After a few years of scuba diving I gained a lot of respect for fish. I honestly believe they have a sense of humor.

I had a dog that made friends with a cat. And a rabbit. And a skunk. Seeing the dog play with the cat was kind of meh. But it was cool to watch her play with the rabbit. When I saw her sniffing the skunks rear I thought it would end badly, but no. The skunk would come over and chill with her for awhile.

There has to be something there for them to make friends.

nobody ever addressed my practical question. would an average, informed 7 year old willingly choose to eat less meat in order to lessen animal suffering?

would you? some have answered definitively, but most have not.

somebody suggested that i was making this thread about the philosophy of vegetarianism, but that wasn't my intent. i was really more curious how many "liberals" who post here think about this issue much at all or care.

vegetarians have already decided and acted, but i am curious if we have any conservative vegetarians wandering around these parts and their motivations.

personally, i am slowly moving away from all factory farmed meat (i fail in restaurant settings) and may or may not stop there.

We're still evolving, right? When the next species, human superiorus, evolves and is more cunning than we, should it be cool for them to enslave and kill us? I guess we'll ask them.

7 year olds would eat their weight in fudge cycles every day if you let them. So yes, until they got tired of fudge cycles, then no. Maybe a 14 year old would, but it depends on how and what he was "informed" obviously.

Mat, we could kill all of the predator animals ending endless suffering by prey animals.

Life is what it is, and it isn't always going to be pretty. Millions of animals die painful deaths at the hands of predator species every year. But nobody shames the lion.

My 6 year old daughter asked if she could get a rabbit. I asked why. She said so we could raise it then kill it, cook it and eat it.

My definitive answer is that not only would I not decrease my meat intake in order to lessen animal suffering, but I would be quite permissive of increasing animal suffering if it made my current meat intake tastier. If waterboarded beef was a thing that was more delicious than regular beef, I would oppose banning cow torture.

What happens when those prey animals, who then have no natural predators, reach an unsustainable population and start having mass starvations?

Does that count as suffering?

I swear I read a story recently, this year, and this isn't it, though it is similar, but it was something to the effect that lab-grown meat will probably never be a viable option and folks should try to substitute some vegetable-based fake meat.

Wish I could remember where I read it or heard it. May have been npr.

Good question.

And what of the cows and chickens, do we just turn them loose or do we euthanize them and bury them?

what you point out is why i will probably never go vegetarian. it doesn't mean i feel okay about the undeniable, prolonged suffering inflicted upon animal used for our consumption.

do you really think the prey/ predator relationship is similar to factory farming practices? and our slaughtering methods. and if you want to compare a human to a lion, i have more questions for you.

the issue can be made complicated, but i'll make it really simple, albeit unrealistic.

let's say profit wasn't an issue. how many people would willingly choose to eat the animal they knew was raised in a cage and faced a painful death over an animal that grazed in a lot of open space and was shot in the back of the head by surprise?

i bet there's some, but very few. i'm sure there are more who don't care either way, but that's why chez's point that the burden lies on those who do care makes a lot of sense.


i just saw on the news that 93% of consumers in NJ favor a ban on gestation crates. i wouldn't be surprised if more than half of them had no idea what a gestation crate was before answering the question.

Would you say the same for seriously ******ed humans who are institutionalized with no family who also taste good and are legal to eat?

this is where politics unchained should prove itself. not being forced into civil discussion where the emotions run high serves a purpose, i believe. if i felt free to participate, honestly, this issue and nitwit's answer would have me lashing out like a maniac.