Is there no 100k tourney today?

^^ Runs once a month, usually on the second Sunday. $50k GTD on the other Sundays.

Yet another example of "taking it slow" gone horribly wrong. This site could easily support a $100K if they'd grow a pair.

^^ The last three normally scheduled $50k GTD's (two didn't run due to the OSS) had player totals of 357, 328, and 325, respectively - none of those overlaid and they made about $15k in profit. The last two $100k GTD's saw 415 and 486 players, which resulted in $19,800 in overlays and around $6,000 in loss of profit.

I'd suggest having a cavalier attitude towards raising and lowering MTT guarantees would result in a lot more "going horribly wrong" then having a steadier approach. WPN made small adjustments to the $12.5k, which has been heavy in overlays all year long, and it's still overlaying. So while it may be easy to say "jacking up the GTD's now = more traffic now", it's not always the case. Sometimes it takes a little time.


EDIT: I suggested an increase in overall GTD's on their daily schedule to the WPN TD not long ago. I thought it would be a bit of a bold move (lowering a couple GTD's, adding new MTT's, adding to GTD's in some spots, raising/lowering some buy-ins, etc.). So obviously I'm not for standing pat forever.

What better advertising can you get than a $100K that overlays? Especially when both of your major competitors have a Sunday major that is over twice as large. If you were a rec choosing to take a shot at a big MTT where would you go? Bovada's $162 $100K that gets up to $175K+, Merges $125K (that hopefully trends around $140-$150K) or WPN's $215 that is a $50K? Pretty easy choice.

Again, you act like I'm advocating the sites putting up ridic guarantees they will never meet, I'm not. Why not make it a $75K though? WPN just seems to be content with being 3rd. They squander opportunities with the best of them though!

That's a pretty basic opinion, which is your right to have. Not everyone has to be #1 by tomorrow, sir. At any rate, I can't debate this all day with ya. Agree to disagree...just different thoughts for different blokes.

Again, not saying slow and steady isn't a good method, because it is, but they aren't slow and steady, they are complacent to be a mediocre option and every action they've made since 2012 when they started to become relevant has proven that.

The last OSS did soooo good and what have they done to capitalize on it besides adding a bi-weekly( or w/e they did) $550? Seems smart the only change they've made was adding a MTT for a player pool that already plays their site anyway (because people playing $500's tend to play every site).

Of course, WPN_TD promised a revamp, but who knows when that will be. We can only hope it doesn't take as long as the promised software fixes that took over a year and still aren't even close to entirely fixed (it'd sure be nice to be able to add on when it asks without having auto add on clicked).

Moral of my wall of text is people have been begging to give these people money for a very long time but they take too long to capitalize on it.

GL if you're grinding today, Nutz.

Some cubed tournaments would do well I think.

A $5 and a $10. Something like that. Even a $15 or $20.

The structures are great, the schedule is horrible. A few software bugs that can easily be fixed, but aren't. Mostly because this site would rather have you betting sports than playing poker. I don't think they really care about the poker on the site. They change guarantees all the time and buy in amounts to try and hit guarantees. No matter what is said in here, there is rarely anything done to improve this poker on here. The timebanks are way too long and late reg is lol long. I get the "we wanna get as much in the prize pool so we don't have to put any in" argument, but if you look at mot lobbies, the only ones coming in late are reentries of people that have busted. In some tourneys, i.e. the $22 6m, over half the field is reentries.

The timebanking is insane. Playing the 12.5k today, we didn't get 2 orbits in in the 15 min level. I realize this has a little to do with bad regs who can't multi-table properly, but they are allowed this time by the site. Not to mention the recreational players that purposely timebank 50 spots from the money in an effort to get closer. WPN cares not tho and the great structures of these mtt's are ruined because of it.

I don't expect any of these things to change because these issues have been around since the sites inception and have been complained about more than enough to warrant change.

Enjoy profiting less than you should WPN, while an anon site with no p2p transfer sticks it in you week after week.

^+1

They have very good structures(maybe too good in some cases for daily MTTs) but the ****ty schedule, long late reg, and numerous bugs/other issues makes me not even want to log in. I was supplementing my schedule with the few worthwhile MTTs offered here, but now that Merge went back to being a poker site again I don't even bother logging in.

The MTT schedule is a joke. There is what, 3-4 worthwhile tournaments worth playing during prime time?

Your only competition (Merge since you're not capable of competing with Bovada) gave you almost a year to take advantage of their short comings and now that they got it together you guys STILL haven't rolled out a real schedule. You guys were wide open heading to the end zone and fumbled on the goal line..

WPN's schedule leaves a bit to be desired, but as I've said before, sir, not every card room is out for conquest. You seem to be in the minority with the late reg opinion, as well. If you're a tournament grinder, why are you complaining about extended late reg anyhow? It's +EV for a good player, all day and twice on Sunday.

Agreed that they could use a substantial software upgrade. But I for one enjoy playing here for a multitude of reasons, and I'd rather not see a vocal minority get their way when the evidence suggests the majority like the tournament structures, at least, the way they are.

Seems to me liking 3 hour late registration is actually the minority, you have it backwards. This is based on comments in this thread and every other online poker room thread that has longer than usual late registration.

Agree, 2 hours late reg is plenty. I'd rather slightly softer fields and lower gtds then 3 hour late reg. This will help the recreational players over the long run. Or just cap the re entry amount to 1. Probably never happen though...

It seems you misunderstood what I said. I LIKE THE MTT STRUCTURE. What I don't like is 3 hours late reg and 90 second timebanks followed buy 45 second timebanks when your timebank runs out. I get why you think it's plus EV to add variance to your game 3 hours into a tourney that you've built a stack in, but I would like to have it down a little. But it's honestly the least of my worries. Also I'm not the "vocal minority". Sorry you cant late reg 3 spots from mincash anymore if I get my way.

OMG this. 1 reentry per player would be awesome, but yea, Neeeeever gonna happen for us "vocal minorities".

Nutz, where is the majority that likes the 3 hour late reg? I've seen very few people post in any forum about any site in favor of it.

Agree with the guy above, the structures are very good. However, when you couple the great structures with 3 hour late reg, unlimited reentries and 5k/15 min blinds it makes the tournaments last waaaaaaaaay too long. If 1st place was 10K sure, it'd be worth it, but when most MTTs on WPN are less than $1K for first it is just not worth the 7-8 hours it takes to play 95% of the MTTs on the site.

I'm in favor of keeping the structures (levels), fwiw, but they need to adapt the late reg and the 5k/15 min part, at least during the week. They set up their nightly MTTs like they are Sunday majors, which makes no sense. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy in charge of the tournament side of things had never played a MTT in his life.

Imo, they need to do what Merge has done. More 3k/10 mins, lower late reg, and create an actual schedule. I agree the software has gotten A LOT better, and is pretty playable now, but lots of minor things need fixed that should have been last summer when they "updated" their software.

There is nothing wrong with a long structure for your flag ships, but having it for everything is just dumb. 2 hours late reg for a rebuy tournament? I mean wtf?

I also very much agree that there is many good reasons to play here. As I've stated many times over, I'd LOVE to give the majority of my action to this site, but there just isn't anything to play and what they do have takes too long.

There is no reason a site with 2 day debit card withdrawals, 27% rakeback and P2P transfers should be struggling to bring new people in. The $33 $7.5K on Merge has been getting close to the same prize pool (not including what WPN overlays every night) as the $30 $12.5K recently and this is with none of the above stated things and pissing off the majority of their customer base. Not to mention late reg is 40 minutes less... That tournament starts 2 hours later (8 PM EST) and finishes before WPN's that starts at 6 PM most nights.

Definitely agree on rebuy/add-ons not needing 2-hour late reg. But amazingly enough, the overwhelming majority of online poker players don't post on internet poker forums, iPlay. The proof is in the pudding - if three hour late reg was so horrible, I sincerely doubt MTT traffic would be at the level it is at the moment.

And I don't "late reg to a cash", though I appreciate having the ability to come in 2hrs30mins late occasionally as work keeps me busy during those hours. I actually tend to score a lot better coming in during the first hour. But variance swings are part of the game in MTT's anyway. Far be it from me to preach, as I'm just a casual player (>120 tournaments in 2014 thus far). But for me, I like the structures and late reg the way they are. And if the majority didn't, I think you'd see a lot less of them on the schedule. My opinion, FWIW.

Their MTT traffic isn't even good lol. It's better than it was, but no where near what it should be.

FWIW, a huge reason I play on WPN is the great structure for the Big 10. I'm not sure that the 200/300/500 GTD need the same structure, but I no longer play them so I'm not concerned about it.

I can't object to quicker structures on the smaller tournaments, but I can on the 22+ dollar Big 10 tournaments. Keeping a solid structure on these is important.

As far as the late registration argument goes, I lean towards keeping it 3 hours. At very least, it's necessary because otherwise they would be overlaying massively, and they obviously can't just bleed cash. Plus, I'm not one to complain about players regging in the last two levels with short stacks. As IHasTheNutz pointed out, variance is part of the game, and I like increasing my edge in return for higher variance. Besides, I also have the option of late regging events with overlay if I get home to late to play them earlier.

It also makes the games play far deeper than other sites later on in the tournament. That's a good thing. If they want to change these things, I'm going to have a problem in that the payout structure isn't top heavy enough to attract me unless the blind structure is very good.

It looks like the 12.5K is usually at the last two tables around midnight now, which isn't too late, especially when you consider it's still 9 PM on the West Coast at that time. I see your point that faster structures on weekdays could fix this problem, but there's no way they could make it a 12.5K GTD.

Before they made their strucures the way they are, it was a 10K GTD, and it still had overlay. Even though it's overlaying sometimes now, I haven't seen it get less than 10K in a while. So there's evidence that more people are playing now than then, for sure. Correlation doesn't equal causation, but using my limited observations it seems the structures have been helpful in growing the site.

For sure, let's add in some tournaments with 10-12 minute blinds and say, 3k starting stacks. That's fine with me, in fact, I'd probably rake more overall if I had more variety because some nights, even I don't feel like playing a long tournament. The only problem, and I'm sure this is exactly what WTD is busy working on, is creating a schedule which is actually likely to grow the site, without the tournaments overcrowding each other with the traffic the site gets.

If they manage to do that, they'd have the Turbo 10, Big 10, and a lot of normal length ones in between. Not a bad schedule.

I know for sure if they change the structures, I'll play less (not that I'm a huge volume grinder on WPN, but I'm certainly capable of raking a lot if I had enough time/incentive.) But if they add in some medium length tournaments, rather than change existing ones with long structure, I'd probably end up playing more.

Very good point. I'm in a similar boat - and feel they've differentiated themselves with these structures. And while their MTT traffic on the whole isn't up to the same levels as Bovada or Merge, they're one of the few if only options for tournament players who enjoy playing tournaments, and not just "let's hurry up and get to the next one" type of tournaments. No probs with them adding some quicker style MTT's along with their current schedule - and I've suggested different types of schedules to the WPN TD based on the MTT traffic stats I track.

But I rest my opinion on the +EV nature of the current late reg setup. Continually baffled how folks don't see this as an overall opportunity.

Sorry if that was at all hard to read. I just noticed it has a ton of run on sentences, mainly because I barely slept last night.

Good post, Boney.

Don't get me wrong, I like the longer structures for the bigger buy ins, but having everything on the site be that way is the issue. Imo there is no reason an $11 donkament with a $1.5K guarantee (just an example not necessarily a particular MTT) needs to take 8 hours on a week night. If they would make them 3K/15 mins and leave the late reg that would help them move faster and also generate more reentries while leaving the end game deep and slow, which I like as much as you guys.

3K starting stacks or less and 10/12 mins is pretty much the standard for every site in the world except special tournaments. There's a reason for that.. Recs need to be able to log in and finish a MTT in 4 hours. Not saying every MTT should be that quick, but the majority shouldn't be more than 4-5 hours.

There are offerings that aren't 5k/3hour late reg/reg blinds on the WPN schedule now. I actually like the $1k, $500, and $300/$200 GTD's that are deep stacked under the same format because they are good practice for staying in "shape" for the bigger GTD's in that format.

If WPN replaced the Big10 format to the "standard" 3k/10-12 min blinds (or the like) for those events, I think it would be a step back. You said it yourself - they offer an alternative to the standard in these GTD ranges you can't find elsewhere. It's as close to a live game simulation of what their standards are (deep stacks in relation to blinds, run times, etc.) while keeping the buy-ins low as you can get...without them becoming 10-12 hour events.

I played the $200 GTD last night, and placed 2nd. It was over in a little over 5 hours with 100+ players. It didn't take 8 hours, and I'm sure the $1k and $500 GTD don't take 8 hours either. The reason the $12.5k GTD does is because it's a larger field, obviously, and the structure caters to patient players - they'll succeed more than an impatient "gotta get to the next MTT!" types on balance, IMO.

This is just my opinion. I love playing on WPN these days, as it's the best fit for my game. I play live tournaments here and there (nothing of note, but it's live poker at any rate) and I also run live games. I know I'm no high-raking player and I don't play enough to warrant much say in the process, but I'd hate seeing their schedule start being geared to the turnover grinders who play more for volume and less to play the game itself.

Everyone is entitled to say in how they structure tournaments going forward, that's what the thread is for. You make some very good points Nutz, as did Boney. They need to look at it from ALL angles.

My situation personally is that I play at least 40 hours while working a finance job 40+ hours a week. MTTs used to be my bread and butter but when Merge went to the same long late reg/reentry as WPN I had to switch to HU cash or not sleep. That also caused me to start playing Bovada mostly, which I hate. I'm kind of a rec in the sense I work a real job, but not really as I grind full time on the side to the tune of about 1K MTTs a month. If I didn't work I wouldn't care how long they took, because I agree 100% it gives me a huge edge. When I started working full time again it really put into perspective how the average rec feels when they reg a tournament at 8 PM and it doesn't finish until 3-4 AM. Now that the $12.5K is at 6 I usually don't even play it because I like to have a life at least for an hour or two after work and if I get in at 8 PM I only have 20bbs. That's obviously still a decent stack, but when I can log into Merge or Bovada and play MTTs from the start that are the same size or bigger it's pointless.

Now that Merge lowered late reg and went to 12 mins for most MTTs I can actually play them again. Other people with jobs seem to feel the same way as even before desegregation the MTTs were growing again after they initially slashed guarantees and late reg.

I still say though, that the average rec who might play in the 12.5k once or twice a week and binks one in a blue moon (most will seldom last long enough to be in it 5-6-7-8-9 hours) will have a couple thousand reasons (hint, $$...lol) to be dragging ass the next day at the office...and will have a sweet hero story to brag about to his annoying co-workers while he's downing cups of coffee to get through the day.

For sure, but there are still lots of recs like me who play 4-5 days a week and put in high volume, especially since black Friday. If every tournament on their schedule was $2K-$2,500 for first or more that'd be one thing, but there isn't even 5 on the schedule that are over $1K for first.

Players don't come to a site for one tournament, they come to a site for the entire schedule. How'd that work for Merge when they went to 4-5 MTTs a night worth playing? Numbers consistently decreased. Eventually they got to a point where they were about the size of WPN tournament pool size. Eventually you hit a point where you can't really decrease any more (because regs/ reg fish stay) but you don't grow. That's kind of where WPN is. They were so small before that they weren't to the point Merge sunk too, but they haven't done enough to break past that point. Hence the stagnation of the $12.5K that never beats the guarantee. Unless they do something different (like OSS showed) they won't get much bigger than they are right now. In fact, with a major competitor like Merge doing what they are they could even start losing the momentum they've created. Continually offering a ****ty MTT schedule is hurting this site.

Unless that 1 tournament is like the Sunday Million or something and not a tournament that 2 other options both have something similar or bigger.

Rec doesn't mean fish just as reg doesn't mean good player. There are plenty of very good recs and tons of reg fish.