We were talking about a bot ring which in theory would not involved all in EV. A collusion bot ring (an accusation to this point no one had made) is another story.

20k hand sample is a one day grind for me and many others. If the equivalent of a one day sample is enough to sway you, online is not for you.

I'm not sure what you're arguing at this point Thrash.

His point is just because their bots doesnt mean they'd be immoral and collude as well. Eastern Euro bots just want to play the pokers guyz not cheat!

lol that name and location

do you really live in thailand

Thrash's points are clear and fair.

There's no evidence of collusion.

A 20K hand sample, especially in PLO, is worthless.

If people don't think there are bots at just about every level of NL & PLO (with the exception of $5/10+ for PLO) then god bless

It is a weird situation because they help to make up so much of the volume being played at PLO right now.

Yeah, WPN really has no incentive to do anything. I wonder if getting rid of the bots (which would make the games a million times better) would offset the loss by people(humans) actually enjoying the games they are playing.

Figures. I'm curious though, why aren't there bots at $5/10+?

I'm not really sure what would happen. I imagine many players don't play much/if at all because they don't want to play with all Israel & Eastern Europeans on every single table. It would take a bit of time for those players to become consistent regulars on the site but I don't imagine this scenario happening anytime soon.

I do think they should get rid of them at the micro stakes games. No one wants to come play 10plo & play with 3 Eastern Europeans playing slow on every single table. Keep these guys around the higher games I need a lot of tables

Finishing up a session but I have a lotttttttt of thoughts on this. I want to think about what I say because I know the bot maker and operators are out there heavy on the lurk. We know some of the same people my young bot friends

I secretly enjoying battling the bots a bit too much I assume they all card share anyway & it's sorta fun factoring that into decisions

Nobody ITT was arguing that 20k hands is a big enough sample to draw concrete conclusions from. I didn't mean to imply that it was, and thought I was pretty clear that I was saying the opposite.

Maybe it's just coincidental that a bunch of new Russian and Eastern Euro accounts showed up in the WPN PLO games a few weeks after the bot ring was kicked off PS. Maybe.

I'm listening to Joey's thoughts though.

Seems like the easy play is to just ban the high risk botting countries from the site. Some players who arent botting would get taken out of the pool which sucks for them obv. I imagine the high risk countries are pretty low on net deposits overall. Obv this wouldnt eliminate all the bots but it would cut them down by a HUGE amount.

The other move is to dump tons into security to try to get the site on pokerstars level of security.

Its pretty amazing how much better the games are on other sites that dont allow the high risk botting countries.

I really wish they would restrict tables to 6-8 for cash, segregate cash games by economic status, at least below midstakes, and get rid of the beast in favor of something that puts money in the punters accounts.

I get free money from the beast every week, but if I have to give that up for good games, so be it. I absolutely loath playing on Bovada, but there is no choice if you want to grind cash games. WPN has done a fantastic job building the MTTs, now it's time to take care of the cash games and make them playable.

Just logged in to check the PLO games... what do I see except a brand new account(made today!) from russia.. only playing on other tables with other russians.

ACR please crack down on this bull****.

Has the WPN/ACR rep commented on this?

I started playing .25/.50 and .5/1 plo 6-max on ACR recently and have been doing really well, but you guys are freaking me out with the bot talk, card sharing stuff. The bots alone wouldn't scare me so much but them knowing 12 cards is not the type of game I want to play in.

Now I am hesitant to play every time I see an account from an Eastern European country or Isreal.

Can someone please confirm something is being done about this? Or at least confirm a good player shouldn't worry about it. Thanks.

I'm not quite sure how Israeli got thrown into "zomg bot" but the majority of Israeli players are actually recreational on the site (along with a few pros). Just like the USA they are unable to play most other sites (including stars) so it's natural that there are now a lot of them.

Ya NL is pretty lame on this site cuz everyone mass tables. At least there is some decent plo action or I'd probably just not play lol.

I said it in response to this. Assumed Joe Ingram knows more than just about anyone.

Just like there are real Russians, Ukrainian's, Belarussians etc, there is real people from Israel. That does not mean there isn't also bots from there, because there certainly is in both PLO and NL. There has been quite a few German bots here over the years too, I used to play one at HU every single day, it was amazing.

I also think a lot of people confuse the whales that Israel bring for bots, and that there are much less from here than elsewhere.

I can only comment on the format I play (SNGs) not PLO but I can say that Israelis there are a boon to the ecosystem.

That being said there are people who try to cheat the system in every single country ever to exist. Botting is definitely a problem.

+1

Bots or no bots, overall having the Israel punters has been nice.

If a bot maker has 2 players on the same table then they are +90% sharing cards and that 100% effects your AIEV, even if your AIEV is in the green.

Seems ridiculous to me that someone who makes a bot will just have one of them on a table, although it would make them much harder to find. I have noticed that people who cheat are greedy and knowing 8 cards is worth so much more money than 4, so "grab the free money while you can" is likely their philosophy.

question from someone else - "I'm curious though, why aren't there bots at $5/10+?"

OK, I am listening and eagerly waiting

It is somewhat sad to me that with your knowledge you can play differently to adjust to bots and their card sharing but other people can't do the same because they don't know about it. Don't get me wrong, you don't have to tell other people and it is not your fault the bots exist. You help the community in a lot of way, again, please don't get me wrong.

There are rake playing human regs trying to make a living out there and other ones just looking or needing to gamble. I think that they just want to play against humans who tilt and play poorly sometimes. Players want to know the scope of the landscape of plo today, how many computer programs are they playing against, how sophisticated, etc., there are so many more questions and you are in a rare position to actually know the answers to these questions. I don't play currently, and never plo (plo/8 though), but some answers from you would be very generous to people other than me.

And I know it puts you in a tough spot, because they(botters and non botters) are listening and what you say will literally change the future of both of those groups. It's a tough spot to be in, I suspect.

Are you ****ing serious, someone else turned 18 again today?

Bots and Colluding bots... AI steadily getting better and better and savvy coders finding ways to exploit the online games with vpn connections and shared remote databases.

If you are playing in an environment that has collusion on a regular level, you are playing in a negative ev situation. I know you dont want to go to casino because its too far, or you want to play on the site because of its rakeback, or because you can use your pokertracker, but seriously you are losing money. Even if you are "beating the bots and colluders" you are losing money. Unless you yourself are a colluder push your ego aside for a second and make sure that you are putting your time and energy into the system that is best for you. GL, Grind Smart

Wrong.

he is clearly right

HYPOTHETICAL
poker economy on a site has 20 million in players account

all the bots make 2 million

all the bots rake 3 million

poker site has 15 million

the money they make, plus the rake they pay(and the rake that you pay to play them) is no longer available for you to win. Therefore you lose some potential profit. You lose from them not tilting. You lose from them colluding. You lose, even if you win.

Bots can beat the punters, do you want their money or do you want them to get it? Any good player can beat most bots, but most people aren't good players, ducy?

Not to mention, if they are card sharing (who knows but seems very likely) that directly costs you money in a lot of spots, even if you are still winning. Bot A knowing bot B has the nut block when you pot the river isn't a good thing, right?