Ok, so considering nobody has touted this network more highly than me, I think I have every right to create a thread about my experiences after about 20k hands on WPN in the last three weeks. All @ 5NL, all with PT4 running.

It is absolutely impossible to beat the rake + beast. You have to carry such a high winrate against all of the other players just to break even that it's impossible. When I'm playing, every now and then I'll glance at PT4 and even though I have barely played a hand in an hour there's like $5, $7, or $8 just seemingly missing. Poof. Just from folding out bad hands and maybe winning a pot or two over an hour. There's no way to win enough to cover that consistently.

On FullFlush, Intertops, And BetOnline I have absolutely crushed the 5NL equivalent. Not even the slightest problem in the world. It plays exactly as expected from reading the hand histories on here. I'm up to 10NL on all three sites other than WPN and it's the same fish for the most part playing there. Things are going well.

On WPN? It's impossible to win. Impossible. You win a pot for $3.48, you hit a cooler for $5.42 minutes later. You have top pair KQ he has top pair AQ. Not once...you'll go on a run being outkicked by one card, over and over and over and over. The same guy, just value betting the life out of the pot, somehow with amazing confidence that nobody has anything like god forbid two pair. Over and over and over.

The board? I'm sorry - I play thousands of hands on other sites. There is absolutely no question that there are more low board runouts on this site than I have seen anywhere else, on TV, any hand histories, anywhere. At all. I can't tell you how many times I'm holding broadway suiteds and the board runs out 447 or 223, monotone or four flush. Over and over, and over. Again, I'm sorry but ...I just don't see any resemblance between how the boards run out on BCP and how they run out anywhere else I've watched or played poker.

I've gone on a heater a few times. Started to rack up 200+ BB's deep on three of four tables. So synchronized that it's impossible to not notice, those tables will shut down. Three at a time will leave together and then the two fish left won't want to play shorthanded against me so they leave. I'll go join another table, and here's a hand I'll see right away:

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $5.02 (VPIP: 34.29, PFR: 22.86, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 36)
BB: $6.78 (VPIP: 23.60, PFR: 17.16, 3Bet Preflop: 6.90, Hands: 765)
UTG: $8.21 (VPIP: 21.62, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 37)
Hero (MP): $6.64
CO: $5.96 (VPIP: 21.30, PFR: 14.33, 3Bet Preflop: 5.13, Hands: 1,498)
BTN: $5.00 (VPIP: 16.51, PFR: 14.81, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 109)

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has 4 4

fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, BTN raises to $0.45, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.97, 2 players) A 4 6
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.17, 2 players) 9
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.40, Hero raises to $5.59 and is all-in, BTN calls $2.55 and is all-in

River: ($10.07, 2 players) 9

Hero shows 4 4 (Full House, Fours full of Nines)
(Pre 19%, Flop 4%, Turn 2%)
BTN shows A A (Full House, Aces full of Nines)
(Pre 81%, Flop 96%, Turn 98%)
BTN wins $9.57
Rake paid $0.34

$0.16 was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.

Now, of course, these coolers happen. The thing is that the guy immediately gets up and leaves the table after that hand. That's it. He got his $5 from me and he's gone. Fine. If that was it, I'd leave it at that but then I'll seemingly get another two, three, four of these "coolers" in a row. Everything comes in bunches.

Whenever I make a deposit, this doesn't happen for a good 5k hands. As soon as I started making some money, shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh down a mountain the graph goes. AA cracked three times a night, having a hand not hit the flop on 4 tables for sometimes 2 hours straight. Maybe I'll hit two or three flops at all. I'm sorry - When I play on other sites I hit downswings and coolers but NOTHING like this. There's just no question that poker plays different here than everywhere else. I don't ever see these things happen anywhere else I watch or play poker and I'm not the first person to point this out.

As for the other players: I see most of them...about 90%, just get absolutely cleaned out. Same thing happens to them - Just HORRIBLE beats over and over and over. I'll see a guy lose 4 or 5 all ins in an hour where he had 90%+ equity on all of them. I mean, it's that bad. That doesn't happen consistently anywhere else. There is, however, a cadre of players that seems to always win. No matter what happens, they NEVER get into a pot with me when I have JJ+. Ever. Not unless they have Aces. I mean, if there's three or four of them at the table, every time I open with JJ+, three of them will fold so fast I'm surprised the software can even keep up with it. Sometimes, two days in a row. 2k+ hands. Straight. Fff fff fff fff ...the fold sound. Get CRAZY and open with 99? Auto 3b. I mean, INSTANTLY - CHICK the money sound and up to 70 cents. I'm just reporting what's happening.

Now, I will tell you this: My tilt control has gotten great as a result of playing on WPN. How could it not? I have to sit through 10, 12, 14 hours of this straight just to clear a bonus. The thing is that it seems like I'm losing at just enough of a rate to even out the bonus by the time I clear it. It's extremely suspicious. I would never say anything about this and just sum it up to a HORRRRRIBLE run but ...I've been through this every time I've put a penny down here and when I see a lot of people on here and elsewhere complain about the EXACT same things - It's getting really difficult to look past them anymore.

It doesn't feel like a bad poker session after some of these. It feels TOTALLY different than a losing session on another site. It feels like I never had any chance to win and the deck was totally stacked against me. It feels like I get ripped off when I play here now.

Anyone else experience anything even the slightest bit fishy on here? Please, I'm not saying it's rigged I'm just reporting what I've seen, experienced, and felt and wondering if others are going through the same thing to any degree specifically on WPN. I've seen several other threads created about this site being "rigged" but I'm not saying it is. I'm simply saying that my experiences here on this site are night and day different than what I've ever experienced anywhere else.

edit: One last point that I wanted to bring up about equities on all ins - I look through my hands after every session and I see this amazing coincidence. I win all ins with less than 90%+ equity almost never. I have to have a good 90% or better equity or I get binked on the river. I'll look at my losing hands of all in: TONS with 55-75% equity. I can NEVER find a hand with that little equity where I actually won. I'm scouring my whole database and I can't find one. PT4 has me running basically exactly by entire losses (about 6 BI's) in adjusted $ I shouldn't have lost at all in. It's just ridiculous and I do see a lot of other players on the site going through the same thing. I do, however, see players that just run HOOOOT for an hour or two and then get up and leave. Night after night.

Don't have time to read all that but I will say from talking to a few people who play NL10 and below it's just robbing these people of money raking for TheBeast when they won't ever see a dime of it.

Either create a mini beast for small stakes or just don't rob from the NL10 and below guys.

I mentioned this in another thread earlier today: You look at stats on guys from 5NL on every other site and they're typical for nanostakes poker. 33/2/2's and 60/5/1's, etc. EVERY table I sit down at on 5NL here has players with 27/25/13 and 33/28/18. Playing like I see people play at 100NL on other sites. I honestly have to say that I find 5NL and 6NL on the others sites compared to this one to be something that is SO stark that nobody could miss it. Just put in some time at 6NL on BetOnline and then here at WPN. How could the players be so, so much better on one site ALONG with all of the above mentioned things going on at the same time without someone raising an eyebrow and wondering "hey, wait a minute here...where's my money going?".

Meh, atleast you can feel like part of a club playing on a site where its the "mainstream" thing to do.

You're both confused.

Compare the rake at WPN with those sites listed. That's your comparison.

There is no extra rake taken for the Beast.

Your tilt control might not be as good as you think it is. Your OP is definitely tilt induced.

You can't beat the rake for WPN but you can for FullFlush? The problem with that is that the rake for FullFlush's 5nl is 10%, the highest rake in the world; it's twice that of WPN's

I don't know if you are playing 6max or fullring but if you are waiting around as long as you say that are for good hands, then you have some serious problems with your game. There are some really good training material out there for microgames these days. Anything by BalugaWhale is good, but his Coaching Kristy series is excellant for microgames. Hunter Bick also has a lot of good micro videos out on DragtheBar.

Let's try and not focus on the least significant point I just brought up, please. All I know is that every time I win a pot, I pay rake and then an extra amount is taken out for the "jackpot" which of course I have no chance of clearing.

While we're at it: You want me to clear my bonus by getting 120 AP per every $5 released. I've played almost 10k hands under the bonus now and I have less than 60 AP. Are you people insane?

What does this mean? Waiting around? I just told you: I'm having a completely night and day different experience everywhere else I play and watch poker. I'm not just talking about my own play. If I load up a couple tables right now and watch, I see the same absolutely INSANE things go on three and four times an hour. People eventually just throw their hands in the air and get up from the table after they have three or four BI's taken away from them on the river by the same two players at the table.

I'll see weird names like "CobraBCP" and "FunACR" join the table and get AA on their first hand dealt. Not once or twice. I see it all the time. Again...no person who's even slightly paying attention couldn't begin to notice all of these things.

I was running so bad today it was a joke. I went down three BI's. I literally played my ASS off, making all sorts of ballsy bets and sitting and using every single nanosecond of my time bank to think and boom. I came from 3BI's down, back to even. What happened the NEXT hand I actually went back in the green? BOOOM massive cooler on the river. I'm sorry, how could something like that happen to someone two to three times a day? Let's see if it happens to anyone else here.

I think you need to take a couple of days off. I'm not saying that to be sarcastic; I'm sincerely trying to give you some good advice.

I don't want to hear it, man. If you're going to just sit there and keep pretending that I'm simply on tilt, we're not going to be able to have a discussion. I didn't lose a lot of money. I'm not fuming or angry or anything.

I'm not going to take a few days off because I'm winning consistently everywhere else I play poker. Please, do not try and push this off onto something that's just totally fabricated. I'm not on tilt and I'm not losing in poker. The only place I simply CAN NOT make a nickle is WPN. At the end of the day, no matter what happens throughout my sessions, it ends in a red balance. Over and over. I honestly don't even have losing sessions that often on the other sites.

So, please: I know you're a huge supporter of this network (as am I) but just brushing this off as "he's upset" really isn't going to do it this time. We've seen other people complain about the same exact things in this very forum and it's always "take a few days off man" and "variance is a bitch". None of that addresses that the things that occur to us on this site don't occur anywhere else when we play poker. I'd imagine that whatever reason that's for, taking a few days off won't change.

Go look at the stacks on players at 5NL. Nobody has a stack that large or that small. It always seems like NOBODY wins anything.

I can honestly say that playing 5NL on this site and profiting has been more challenging to me than any single other task I've partaken in my life. Now, I'm posting hands in other threads and people see how I'm making plays and I'm winning on other sites. Nothing explains why I'd only be going through this on WPN and at 5NL. 5NL shouldn't be like that and everyone knows it.

I swear, I have more beats per day on this site than I have had collectively playing poker everywhere else. That's total truth. It's every single day, too. Not just beats - ridiculous rivers that FORCE me (or someone else) to put the money in against a better hand. That's the thing that seems extremely suspicious to me is that there always seems to be turn and rivers come that guarantee the money's going in by both players. I mean, I'll hit my 2nd nuts OVER and OVER on the river only to then bet or make a call because of it and the other guy hit the pure nuts on the same card. It happens so often to me and the other players I'm watching that as said...It's getting beyond difficult to just ignore or pass off as variance. Not when I don't see that happen at that frequency in any other poker venue on earth lol.

edit: Looking at today's hand history, the only pot I lost that was for a full BI (and it was one full BI exactly) was the 444 under AAA that the guy who suddenly had to leave picked up. Other than that, I never lost one pot that was for more than half a BI and yet I ended the session down 3.5 BI's. Over and over outkicked. Over and over binked on the river. Over and over ff fff ffffff ffoolded to me whenever I have KK or AA on the BB. Just saying.

So you're saying its rigged?

I'm sorry but if you can't beat 5nl the problem is with your playing. 5nl is not full of sharks and the site isn't conspiring to crush you. Getting rivered is actually the hallmark of playing at a good table. You're not going to get rivered nearly as often by good players.

Large stacks often bank their profit. Playing deep stacked is more difficult than playing shallow.

You're just not addressing what I've said in any way, shape or form. I'm sorry but we're not going to be able to converse about this.

I've already beat 5NL on three other sites. Done.

If I experienced the same things when I watched poker on TV, played it on other sites, or watched others play it on other sites online, I wouldn't even make the thread. I told you - BCP = night and day different poker experience. It's laughable.

Why is 5NL IMPOSSIBLE for me to not consistently just bleed money at and I don't even have losing sessions on three other sites now? What could explain that? That I need a Xanax? I think not.

I played al of 50nl on ACR over the last 2 years and got blasted. Yes, the run out appear amazing, and I guess if you are a winner on other networks, but get coolered on WPN skin, then you may have the right to complain, but these grousings are never, ever, going to garner any sympathy in the current state of the 2+2 community.
Anyway, I switched to 25 and 50plo and most are quite anxious to give their money away with top pair. Might be something to consider.

I have the databases in PT4 and I am always checking out other player's profits while playing. I really can't find very many players who aren't also just pouring away money at the micros here. Everyone seems to be losing except just a few players and I honestly never see them lose a big pot. I never seem them shove or call and be behind. I just ...see them win win win. Other than that handful, I see everyone else going through the same thing I am. We're just shuffling each other's money back and forth while paying rake.

Thanks for contributing something other than a troll post. It's appreciated.

Yea, this sounds like 50nl as well...

Hilarious that after posting in the Merge cashout thread over and over again about how great WPN now OP's a rigtard convinced WPN's stealing his cheeseburgers.

There isn't a whole lot to converse about. You're just plucking percentages and stats out of thin air. You say that a lot of other players think like you but you clearly try to shut down anyone in this thread whose experiences differ from yours.

Sometimes playing on different sites requires different skills. When I moved my play from PokerStars to Merge, I went from a winning player to a break even player for a long time even though the games on Merge were softer. For a while I became suspicious of Merge. But the reality was that what was good play on PokerStars became Fancy play on Merge. If you are getting a lot of bad beats on a site, you need to consider that you aren't adjusting to the play on that site.

To this point, other than you, not one player has reported a different experience. In fact, you haven't either. You're not actually taking any position. One has, however, reported that people they know who play(ed) 5NL here go through the exact same thing and that they themselves got "blasted" on WPN last year.

So please, just stop trolling. We got it: You don't go through these things here. That's about the time for you to leave the thread alone. Anything past that is trolling/arguing. See?

I do have difficulties going down this road however. How would WPN profit from being "rigged" in this way? Now I realize there are a couple of high profile sites that did their own things so some could profit, but this is a new online poker world. The profit is in the rake. do you think it is rigged towards incredible run outs to keep the fish around?
You have presented the "Who" and the "What" but how about the "Why"?
What would WPN's motivation be to do this?

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $6.01 (VPIP: 21.21, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 3.70, Hands: 68)
SB: $5.02 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 40)
BB: $9.98 (VPIP: 21.63, PFR: 16.35, 3Bet Preflop: 7.07, Hands: 535)
Hero (CO): $6.04

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has K Q

Hero raises to $0.15, fold, SB calls $0.13, fold

Flop: ($0.35, 2 players) 7 T Q
SB bets $0.22, Hero calls $0.22

Turn: ($0.79, 2 players) 3
SB bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

River: ($1.79, 2 players) 6
SB bets $1.14, Hero calls $1.14

SB shows Q A (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 75%, Flop 84%, Turn 93%)
Hero shows K Q (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 25%, Flop 16%, Turn 7%)
SB wins $3.87
Rake paid $0.14

$0.06 was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.


This is the 17/17/7 (another typical reg @ WPN 5NL) who outkicked me at least three times with an ace. At least. Was doing the same thing to other players. Just repeatedly value betting the life out of the turn and river with top pair ace kicker. Even when it's pretty clear someone could have the flush. Boom, three streets, firing away with top pair ace kicker.

I do not think you are helping your cause - just stoking the flames.

I've thought about it myself and I definitely want to think about it more before I jump to any definitive conclusions but I reiterate that probably the two most suspicious things I see are a) pots being inflated by the 2nd nuts and pure nuts being hit by both players on the same card. A lot. I mean, a lot. b) I see players come and sit next to each other both with "____BCP" usernames, strike gold, and leave. A lot. A lot. Kind of suspicious to see (as I pointed out in my previous posts) winning players at the stake keep joining and leaving tables at the same time and not wonder if they know each other somehow.

I am by no means an expert in the inner workings of a RNG and a poker site. There are people who are though. I'm simply reporting my experiences playing on this site through tens of thousands of hands and how they compare to my experiences everywhere else I've played or watched poker. It's not just noticeable. It's extreme.