According to what/who? See where the problem lies? It's high level math stuff I don't have the background for, as I said it's being looked into but suggestions are welcome. Perhaps a poll should be taken in the general online forum to get an agreed upon industry standard, just a random thought.

How many you need depends on what you're testing. Let's use one of the examples from the OP, because it's easy to test and doesn't even need hole cards:
So there we go, easy thing to test: How often do the boards run out "low" on WPN, compared to how often that should happen? OP was able to spot it just casually playing 20,000 hands, so we can say that's a big enough sample to check for it. Easy peasy.

EV is basically meaningless, but I'll admit that WPN's ****ty policy on mucking at showdown makes it slightly harder to test hands than sites that aren't terrible software wise. You can just use hands that got all in at some point before the river instead, though.
Great news for you: there's a forum right here on 2+2 that has many posters who are incredibly well versed in statistics and probability. A poll is pointless. All you need to do is figure out how many hands you need to be within a certain confidence interval. Generally 5 standard deviations is considered out of the ordinary enough to be definite proof of something.

So you feel this site is shady, therefore it is? You have no actual proof yet?

I will say this... while I am not on board with anything else you've said itt, I do agree with this. The first time I got a deposit bonus here I started playing 25nl and found it super slow to clear, much more so than I expected. I can't imagine in 5nl you could get too much cleared in 45 days.

idk what a fair clearing rate should be, obviously the players have to work for it, but I have no issue with your gripe on WPN's clearing rate being super slow/bad for a micro player.

EV is basically the only important # IMO. The filter you suggested is probably built in tracking soft-wares or easier to create/make.

20% clear rate (not including rakeback) so about industry median.

FWIW in my experience clearing any bonus at micros on any site is an almost impossible task. When I signed up on Full Tilt, back a billion years ago when 10NL was both the smallest stake available and raked at 10%, I still only managed to clear $20 of my bonus before it expired.
I'm not great at HEM, but could probably cobble together filters for flop cards. I think there's a HEM forum on here, if not one of their own, and I'm pretty sure one of the makers of HEM has posted ITT. Shouldn't be too hard to get a filter to check for low runouts slapped together. It is over a bunch of hands, sure, but the way OP's obsessing over being 3.5 buyins under EV is just pointless.

Ok op i'll play along.

How many hands do you have on every other site?

And why have you not posted a single stat?

thanks for the link and info otatop, I already replied before you edited and added it. We will look into it and if need be post over there.

I appreciate your input and agreement. I'm in the middle of a few things here totally unrelated to this but really - I'm not the mathematician here. That is by NO means my strong suit in life. I'm glad others who understand the inner workings of EV and the calculations that are appropriate to this discussion, have chimed in at this point. Maybe there's absolutely nothing amiss here. Maybe my experiences on WPN have just been variance. Let's let others who know more about it collect some data and evidence here and present it in an appropriate, fair manner.

As for the bonus: +1 and thanks. I did the math: At this rate, to clear a $200 bonus, I would have to play 800,000 hands in 45 days. Eight hundred thousand.

10K cleared half of the first 120AP/$5 bonus so 20K hands clears the first $5. It takes 40 $5 increments to hit the $200 bonus. 20k x 40 = 800,000 hands @ 5NL.

There are also players that have been playing and winning on many sites for many years that feel he may not be wrong.

And for the record I hope so badly he's wrong (sorry op but I truly hope it turns out you, me and others are just running bad). Myself and others would love to be able to grind in peace and also promote the site, help it grow.

20k total hands is obv not enough to make an accurate determination. I've got over 100k myself total but probably nowhere near that many showdown hands. There's also the issue of combining stats for analysis (site TOS) and if it were to happen it would have to be entire samples for each user not cherry picked bad run stretches.

I swear on a stack that I, too, also hope that this is simply a tens of thousands of hands run from hell that I'm not experiencing even slightly on any other site. I'll also be going to play live in the casino soon so I'll have even more experience to compare this site to. Believe me, I truly mean this: I hope that I am completely and utterly wrong. This is my favorite site because of the software, the traffic, the customer service 24/7, etc. I would also very much be able to grind in peace and help the site grow through the coming months and years.

That's exactly the problem. He only listens to those who agree with him.

If your position is: "There's nothing amiss here", then you're almost insinuating that unless I stop the thread here and agree with you, I only listen to those who agree with me. There's people in the thread who agree with me that there's enough smoke here that warrants a deeper look into the situation. You don't. Why would your personal opinion trump the collection of data that is to follow in this thread? It doesn't.

You've given your opinion. Thank you. Now, for you to just continue to post over and over in the thread, trying to inflame the situation, is simply trolling.

You shouldn't be able to clear a $200 bonus at 5nl

Fair point, allow me to contribute some statistics:


Gee golly, I sure am running like dog**** over 44 hands that were all in before the river.
I don't think anyone's said to stop the thread, just to like...post any kind of evidence beyond your observations.

haha g1! Probably also filtered only for losing hands if I had to guess.

Nope, you can see all the filters I used in that screenshot: Allin on Turn (or earlier) = True

still waiting for op to post some stats/graphs......

ok ya got me I need to work on my HUD ability a lot. Maybe you did something with the check boxes or cherry picked a nasty stretch. I know enuf to know there's lots of ways to play with stats.

I didn't do any of those things, actually. I cleared every filter I had to make sure it included every hand I've played on WPN (clearly I haven't played many), then just filtered for hands that got all in by the turn.

I appreciate the insinuations that I'm some kind of liar, though.

his screenshot is legit, he is way below ev when all in on turn or earlier at wpn

Here is mine for comparison:

lol sheesh somebody is a little sensitive, I apologize for upsetting you! I more assumed you were being silly, trying to make a funny or it was a mini troll.

Anybody wanna acknowledge my post?