I'm not hating on him.

And you ask why it's ridiculous?

A 25/50nl grinder who is not even making money via actually playing poker is getting a 15k present from the website that he is here advertising and blogging about, and I have to explain to you why this is ridiculous? And that 15k came out of our pockets?

I haven't considered cashing out until now.

it's definitely in qtip's best interest to advertise the website since it's an aggregate pool and the more players the more the share to first place is. you don't need to explain why the beast is ridiculous, everyone ITT already knows it is and has put in the stats required to prove unequivocally that it is. even qtip seems to have (finally) backed down from that terrible OP

this is on WPN. they need to massively alter or outright remove the beast, and since the latter isn't ever happening, the former is the only solution that doesn't end in an eventual exodus. don't get me wrong, i'm right there with u pissed off that i'm grinding out as many hands as i am solely to be padding the prize pool for the top players while realizing a loss on the beast myself

That 15k didn't just come out of everyone's pocket. Anyone who played a beast table voluntarily put their money into the beast. Please just stop your bitching and come back with something constructive.

Hey chopsy, still boycotting the beast tables?

I will play with increased rake and a simple rake race. The whole problem is that they have the american market by the balls right now

And qtip isn't advertising for ACR because more players = more prizes for him, he's doing because it's his job, he's ACR's boy.

Boycotting is not the word I would use. I simply cannot put the volume in the top point getters can. If the payout structure was adjusted or if they capped the payout spots to 100-150 players I would definitely play the beast tables. Hopefully something gets worked out by the 16th.

Here's your post in a thread called "boycott the beast"

I just don't understand the logic in saying they have the American market by the balls. People have the right to simply not play at the beast tables or on the site at all. Are people so desparate to play people that they would play knowing they cant make money at certain tables? I personally would rather not play at all.

Did you even read my post in that thread you idiot?

Just looking at the prize package for the satellite... I'm pretty sure this ticket is worth exactly $0 to me. I don't have a passport, and won't be able to get one in time if I happen to win. $1500 of the package only has value to be spent at the resort. The rest is an entry to the tournament, hotel accommodation, and $800 for airfare. I'm guessing the $800 might be just put in your account, but the rest probably has to be redeemed in person on the ground in the Dominican Republic...

I'm going to email support and find out the specifics.

So just skimming the thread, it seems the Beast sucks even more than many people intuitively suspected.

~20 people (and the site) come out ahead -- while hundreds, possibly even thousands are simultaneously losing?

Do I have the gist of it, or is this unfairly critical?

You're the one who cant beat nl25 beast tables, you're the one boycotting beast tables then turning around and kissing ass, you're the one who doesn't understand that wpn has control in the american market, and you're calling me an idiot?

WHy are you even in this thread, I do this for a living, _FOR_A_LIVING_, you are screwing around boycotting and kissing ass the next minute, why? For what? You have almost nothing at stake. Go find something better to do

Does no one else like this idea other than Qtip?

Beast is currently paying out cash to 350 players and tournament tickets to many more. Why not cut these payouts in half and increase payouts to the whole leaderboard? Seriously, if you're not in the top 175 of people being raked I don't know if you even deserve anything anyway. I'd cut it down to 100 or 125 people myself.

If you're a regular, you're top 100 anyway. If you make it top 60 pays... this would actually motivate guys like me to play more, since I'm on pace to finish top 75 or so, playing 40-50k hands this month.

Pretty much the solution, if you want to call what's outlined in this thread a problem.

I think it is an excellent idea and would be very in favor of it.

The problem from WPN's perspective, however, may be that part of what they're trying to sell (when I read the pitch for it on their website) is that the pot is spread out such that any ol' buddy has a shot at winning something.

My opinion is reducing the number of paid positions wouldn't hurt WPN whatsoever. Doing a quick analysis of handcounts vs points, it is quite clear that hand volume rises exponentially as you climb the leaderboard. That is, it's the top of the board that's pumping out the volume, starting up extra tables, keeping games going, etc anyway (obviously that's not to say that #350 didn't start a table one day). And WPN would not lose that at all by reducing the field (in fact, they might gain a bit...but that's a highly speculative and unnecessary argument).



If they reduced the number of people who make the leaderboard, have a redistribution of Beast money (doesn't need to be made equal; #1 should still have a prize worth clawing over), and made the tournament a leaderboard-only cash-prize tournament... I think the Beast would still do what it is intended to do: increase volume and grow the site, which is accomplished by regs, who are smartly rewarded for it.

So if I got this right, you guys are pissed bc the Beast costs lots of people extra $ every month.

Yet now you are advocating that it pay out less places and cost even more people $ every month.

That is gold.

So as long as you benefit more you will like the promo, yet you are pissed at Qtip in this thread.

Ironic

I'm not pissed at all at qtip. What's ridiculous isn't that he's getting that money, it's that anyone would be given such a disproportionate amount of money for doign somethign so mundane.

It's not so much that I want to benefit monetarily, it's that I need the leadership of the company whose network I play on to have it together, I need them to be logical and reasonable. I will always make money playing poker, nobody has rake so high I can't beat it, but right now I have very little choice... and if you force me to work with a company that I don't think is competent, I will just say eff it and withdraw and grind live poker more.

I mean, really, 20k to a breakeven 25 nl grinder... if you read this in a story, would you believe it?

yeah, I'm with you on this. seems pretty remarkable but I guess its the nature of a lot of people. one gigantic example of as long as I'm getting mine I don't really give it too much thought whats happening to any other random individual.

Paying less people is the worst idea I've heard in a long time.

+1 to NxtWrldChamp and Menace

Wow. Just, wow.

Nice sense of entitlement, buddy.

lol at the reactions, I guess tournaments should pay out everyone too

not exactly...

the point is it's a promotion aimed at regs to drive volume. the structure, however, has a rather broad sour-spot where people pumping out large volume and driving games are being penalized. this shouldn't be the case.

two proposed solutions are 1) reconfigure the pay structure and/or 2) pay less people and use those payouts to reconfigure the pay structure

i'm in favor of both 1 and 2 based on arguments and opinions that I've stated previously*. WPN should at least be in favor of 1.

I tacked on an additional adjustment i'd be in favor of: making the tournament a leaderboard-only cash-prize tournament rather than a satellite to an out-of-the-country tournament package. But really that's just preference...but one I think most would be in favor of.


*to summarize for 1): it's contradicting to have a promotion to drive volume but have a structure where a large percent of high-volume players lose
to summarize for 2): paying less players doesn't negatively impact WPN's intentions of increasing volume since it is the high-volume players driving the games and - as far as the promo is concerned - the low-volume players just happen to be there

Ideally it would serve as an incentive for players across the spectrum of grinders to more casual players. There are players who will never be in a position to gun for a top 100 ranking, but might be convinced to try to improve from 500 to 300, or 250 to 200. Right now, a guy looking at his payout for 200th can easily see that he will pay much more in drops than his award will increase if he tried to improve significantly.

The payouts are too flat until you near the top spot. The bottom can prize doesn't have to start at $75. It can be $20, and give somebody a reason to push for a $50 prize. That would also free up some money to fill out the mid tier payouts so they aren't so disastrous.

With the example of September, we see nearly $65k going to satellite tickets. Over $4k of that is raked again. I doubt payouts can be fixed while they're forcing people into these satellites.

Make it a cash prize only, lower the bottom end payouts, make the payouts less flat and smooth, and I think we'd be on our way to having a decent promotion.

No, the guys in #500 do not give a crap about moving to 200. Pretty much top 60-50 pay is optimal. Also the beast rake should just be lowered

this is utter nonsense

EVERY PLAYER ON THE SITE who isn't in the top 10 of the leaderboard or the bottom 10-20 of the leaderboard is losing money on the beast. the players who are in the middle of the leaderboard are actually losing more money than players who aren't on the leaderboard at all

if the beast is going to exist, which format would you prefer? a large sprawling leaderboard with a size so pointlessly large that almost everyone on it is a net loser on the beast or a smaller leaderboard where everyone on it is a net winner on the beast? instead of 20 out of 500 profiting why shouldn't 200 out of 200?