if we include the $55 tourney as $50 in added value (sans $5 for rake), 73.4% return on my contributions to the beast, 26.6% loss

womp womp wompppp

Thanks for the rundown, Mirage/Vigil!

So, even if the Beast is altered, its going to have a clear effect on the player pool/game quality and prevent WPN from becoming what it could be (#1 in the US market by a LARGE margin).

How this will play out now that players are becoming more informed of whats going on and the effect the Beast is having.

1) Players that want to target the Beast will do so. Overall game quality will take a hit because these players are not action drivers, they are volume drivers. The majority of them play a style that literally no one finds enjoyable to play against.

2) Those that don't shoot for the Beast simply won't be depositing or will be bumhunting the site while mixing in volume from other options, further hurting the overall game quality while directly pushing off a portion of your potential market share to competitors (lolz).

3) Recreational depositing players will lose at a faster than normal rate, have fewer winning sessions overall and be less inclined to redeposit, further hurting the immediate and long term game quality of the network.

Can we please have someone from WPN pull their heads out of their asses and get this situation addressed? Look at the numbers Mirage posted.

This extra rake is an epidemic! There is zero reason to expect sustainable growth wrt cash games with this extra tax on the player pool. It literally makes no sense unless you guys simply don't want to grow while simultaneously pulling off a gigantic money grab. . .

I think I turned a small profit w/ tourny ticket. The ironic thing is I stopped playing the beast tables 6 days into the month. Had I continued to play them I would have mad roughly an extra hundo from the beast but would have had to pump a ton more into the beast. Not worth my time.

I think I'm just done with playing cash on WPN. Unfortunately that meanst I'm going to have to give up playing cash entirely, since my options are extremely limited where I live.

I was trying to make the transition into playing nlhe cash, after being mainly an mtt/sng player for a while. Used to grind limit holdem for some time a few years ago, too. But I can't develop as a nlhe ring player in this environment. I've done fine at 10nl, but I can't make the transition to 25nl like this. Rather than stay at 10nl forever, I'm going to find other areas to grow as a poker player.

I'm just throwing in the towel.

You in your spot need to play Bovada. Not to sound like a shill but if you're playing 25nl it's a decent deal. One they have cash promos every month which are easily cleared meaning you'll get $120-$200 a month back depending on which one is running. Second the games are super soft and even softer on the zoom tables. The rake is on the higher end but it's countered by sports betting fish. If you haven't tried it..do it.

Thanks for the advice. I just tried logging in for the first time in a while, and it says my account has been disabled. So I'll see what support can tell me.

The reason that wpn can not stop the beast for a month or two to see what happen is: if you take away the revenue that the beast drags in in straight cash, the network goes down.

Or many more people will come play and the network will flourish. 50/50 on which would happen.

I'm kind of sad. I think the beast might have hurt my development as a poker player, and set me back quite a bit.

I don't think that these numbers tell the whole picture. There's more to consider in evaluating the overall effects of the Beast on a player's profits.

The Beast forces players to play more tables and longer sessions than they normally would. Playing like that really degrades a player's game. The money lost through play degradation needs to be figured into the equation to determine the true value of the Beast.

QTip, for example, is undeniably a good player. But from what I understand, he isn't actually winning any money at the tables. But how much money would he be making if he was playing a small number of tables? That amount needs to be compared to the Beast payout inorder to get the real value of this promotion. In QTip's case the Beast payout is probably compensating him pretty well. But how many ranks down do otherwise good players stop benefitting from the Beast? I don't know those numbers but I have a feeling that we don't have to look to far down the list before this promotion becomes a Beast of Burden.

It's a fair point that I've wondered about too.

In QTip's case, as long as his lossrate is < the total rakes, then even with what passes as subpar play for him, he's winning from players (just not winning as much as the house is taking). Put another way, if rake were subtracted out he is still a +BB/100 player which means he's still beating the players, 40 tables at a time, and then is being refunded some of the regular rake (VIP) and making a large profit on the Beast rake.


Beating the rake at low stakes has always been an issue in poker. That isn't a new problem. But having to beat an additional rake (to fund a rake-race promotion) is...a bad situation for the players driving that volume but don't hit the top 3% of the leaderboard.


I do wonder, however, how many (if any) leaderboarders are actually losing to other players due to multi-tabling beyond their ability for the purpose of the Beast. Which would make them producers. Which would be a good thing for the games. But these players couldn't last very long...pay the rake, pay the Beast and pay the players...I can't imagine a bankroll withstanding that for very long.


In my case, I have a positive winrate and I'll be increasing my volume in order to at least break even from the Beast after the bimonthly payout. If, however, my winrate drops due to increased volume I will have to calculate if the drop in winrate is > or < the Beast payout. If < the Beast payout, I plug on. If > the Beast payout, I'll have to reduce the volume, regain my winrate, and I guess pay the Beast tax.

Turns out that because of the state I live in, I can't pay there..

Based on the number I have over the 6 months I've done the beast (1 million + hands) I'd say tons of players where finishing in the top top and even top five and not making anything. I saw alot of grinders that were down 2-4k with less than 100k of hands on them.

sigh... i posted this in the other (less active) beast thread. why don't they just merge them?

i can see why they would need a "gimmick" like this to attract multitabling regs when they were a tiny/new company. but with the fall of merge (raising rake - lol) and revolution (no/slow payouts), they are the #1 US site where you can play more than 4 tables. they could have been THE ONLY ATTRACTIVE GAME IN TOWN for mutitablers, JUST BY NOT DOING ANYTHING STUPID(!) and could have captured almost all of the merge/revolution defectors. at this point, I think they are hurting themselves with this promotion - they picked up some (but not nearly as much as they could have) of the merge/revolution drop in players the past 6 months. very few (part time) micro to small stakes regs are going to want to play here with the beast making it impossible to make any money.

the question management needs to ask itself is, are the top 10 or 20 players (everyone else is "close" to break-even" or loses money) in the beast going to play elsewhere if they STOP this promo? absolutely not - where else are they going to play? they may play "LESS", but what other site are they going to go to as a US player? alienating a few thousand players to satisfy a few handful (who would still put in decent volume there anyway - because there is no other attractive site for a US 20+ tabler!) is pretty friggin' stupid and short-sighted. I am pretty sure their average number of players could be 50+% higher than what it is is now - they are only at 440 (according to PokerScout), and merge/revolution dropped about 600 players in the past 6 months. so they had to go to bovada or chico, or just dropped out completely. wtf are they thinking?

now, with Chico making payouts somewhat regularly and state-licensed gaming sites coming on board, they are in danger of losing a sizable chunk of the player pool. one of the ways you develop a good infrastructure of players is through word of mouth. pissing off thousands to appease your 10 highest volume players is not going to get the job done. and tbh, i'm not sure if any of the "top 10" would honestly recommend the site to a buddy who wants to start off in micro-stakes - because the beast is so onerous for a new player. well done.

now that management got be to the #1 site for 4+ tabling, maybe they should use this new-found position to do something about getting to 1000+ avg player/day - where they should have been by now. get rid of the beast, and spread the word that this is the best site for US players. because according to pokerscout, chico is catching up and all the non-top20 regs will all leave when a similarly-sized site appears with equally fast cashouts.

Second post:

LOL. it looks like they only redistribute 75% of the Beast prize pool (if you add up the "cash prize" column, you only get 75% of the total of the "Beast jackpot") and I guess the other "25%" goes towards this tournament entry (and possibly some "management fee"?). who the f*ck is going to want to go to panama? even if I win, I can't go! and I am contributing to this.

also, not sure if the "current cash race jackpot" is before or after they take whatever cut they do.

it's just so shady and unnecessary - get rid of it, if you ever want to be a "serious" poker site.

Here is something to add to the last post. I'm pulling numbers out of nowhere but I think its close to accurate and it should be apt for what I'm explain.

If in the lower stakes the average rake is 6-7bbs per 100 and about 1.5 bbs goes back to RB and VIP the site takes 5bbs per 100. If winning players win 3-7bbs per 100 including rakeback that means the site will make 50% of what ever is deposited. That 50% is not profit yet as they have a promotional budget, affiliates and have to pay a heavy tax on payment processors.

The beast now drastically increases the rake so that no players really have a win rate. So essentially they're now able to keep a higher percentage because a decent amount of the money won on the site is coming from additional rake charged.

The top five from last race play the majority of their hands at 25nl (they got about 28k which is 1120 buy ins at 25nl) just that alone will mess up the eco system. Players who are actually doing some table selecting and playing a style that is looser and more winning (actually more fun for the fish to play with) are not finishing high enough in the race and getting penalized.

Additional extra funds are taken out for these tournaments that the site has as a way to promote themselves in an area that is newer to poker.

So what the beast does is it saves them money because they have to pay out less people and therefore not get taxed on the payment processor side. They keep a larger percentage of the deposits. They also save money on the promotional budget because they are able to pump money into these events that they have world wide.

When the CEO created this I am certain he did not do it for this reason. I believe he though it would be a cool and innovative thing. Now that its creating a bigger bottom line why change it. Its possible that this site may not be able to get big as US regulated poker may take too many players in the next few years. So why not grab as much money as you can while people are still playing.

My game of choice is LHE. Looking at these numbers pretty much convinces me that LHE will be entirely unbeatable if the game ever takes off on the WPN network. WPN charges the same rake as Merge for LHE games which is a really fair rake. It's a shame that the Beast might mess with that. Hopefully LHE players will be smart enough not to go the way of the NLHE players and will avoid the red games.

Now that revolution has got their act together (and kicked off lock + intertops buying juicy stakes and paying everyone) they're going to be #1 soon.

It's a shame WPN, you could of EASILY been the #1 US site if you got your **** together earlier.