Disclaimer: I make a lot of money from the Beast. If you can't look past this fact to use critical thinking skills to analyze a promotion, that's out of my control.

There has been a lot of noise about the impact of the Beast promotion. From what I've read, the majority of the discussion is not based on data. From my research, the complaints are unfounded. I'm glad the Beast exists. I submit you should be glad, too. I invite you to criticize my thinking.

WPN has made a mistake in this promotion: they're not showing players their contribution to the Beast. My advice to them is to make the Beast contribution visible in each player's rewards information. I've used filters in PT4 to arrive at my beast contribution. I can also extrapolate this method to the contributions of other players based on their points (loosely because of the points multiplier at different stakes). I'm positive every person in the Beast leaderboard is getting more money back from the Beast than he or she contributed. If you want to see your contribution, filter your database for (Saw Flop) AND (Player Won Hand). Then multiply the # of hands by 0.25. If you're on the leaderboard, you'll find your contribution is less than your prize.

As I type, the leaderboard goes down to #478. Player #478 has 677 points. Assuming his play was at 25nl, this is about 2,000 hands of play, and his contribution would be in the neighborhood of $20. He's getting a $55 tournament ticket for $20. Even the person on the bottom of the leaderboard is getting more back than they contributed. This is the case for every player on the leader board, and the higher you rise on the leaderboard, the more you earn from the Beast. WPN needs to show the contribution, and everyone on the leaderboard will find out they've earned more than they contributed.

If everyone on the leaderboard is getting more than he or she contributed, where is the money coming from? Obviously, the money comes from everyone NOT on the leaderboard. As player #479 and everyone lower contributes to the Beast, the entirety of their contribution goes to fund the Beast. Who are these people? This round, they are any player who has not put in the point equivalent of more than 2,000 hands at 25nl (fewer hands if play were at higher stakes). What type of player doesn't put in the points equivalent of more than 2,000 hands at 25nl? My guess is these players are almost entirely recreational players, i.e., fish. Money poker players make has always come from fish. There is nothing new here. If you don't think fish should provide the winnings for other poker players, you're in the wrong business. If you'd like to attempt to talk reason to the fish, best of luck to you. My guess is each player not on the leaderboard contributes less than $8 a month.

There are a few conclusions to take from the above facts.

#1. If you don't put in the points equivalent to 2,000 hands at 25nl and you can't breakeven in the games, you're better off not playing at Beast tables.

#2. If you're on the Beast leaderboard, the Beast is helping you beat recreational players at a greater winrate than you would on your own.

#3. If you are on the Beast leaderboard and you have a net loss at the end of the competition, it's because you can't beat your opponents for greater than the rake. The rake has nothing to do with the Beast. Your total winrate would have been worse if the Beast did not exist.

The Beast helps anyone putting in even marginal volume. It's good for any non-recreational player.

The network has grown significantly since the Beast began. That's good for everyone.

What's not to love here?

WPN simply needs to show individual contribution.

you adding in the tourney ticket as if it's cash is a problem

Treat it for whatever it is. I'm saying he got something that costs $55 for $20. Perhaps the ticket isn't worth $20 to player 487. OK then; he got less than contributed.

In any case, even player #279 with 1,327 points (the first player currently getting cash + ticket) is at least getting a tournament ticket whatever it's worth (and I'm guessing maybe an extra $10).

You're not calculating correctly.

saw that. deleted my post accordingly and recalculated

still losing money

We all understand what's going on. We all get what's happening. I see what you did in you post. You pickd a guy with low numbers and said look at how much the 55$ tourney ticket helped him. That guy doesn't even know he's entered into a tourney.

The guys at the top are killing it in the beast, and the guys not at the top are really all paying an extra rake, how much depending on how high up they are on the list.

not to mention you're ignoring that the $55 tourney is still being raked. a lot of people in the middle who may be up a dollar or so are really down 4. the reason WPN won't show the contribution is because a lot of the people in the middle are getting hosed

I'm happy to pick anyone on the leaderboard at the end of the competition (and probably close to everyone even now).

I picked the guy with the worst case—some guy who played 2,000 hands gets a ticket for less than it costs.

There's no trickery. People say the beast is killing their winrate or making the games unbeatable. I'm saying this is untrue for those on the leaderboard. I'm saying the opposite is the case. No one on the leader board is getting less than they contributed. The majority are getting more.

Find a player in the middle and ask him to check out his database. I'd like to see anyone is even getting less than contribution—let alone hosed.

The rake is in the $55 ticket. I'm not seeing how that's relevant to people's contribution and return.

i'm reasonably high up the leaderboard. even giving the $55 tourney the full $55 value i'm down 3.48. including the rake of the $55 tourney i'm down $8.48

that's absolutely relevant. $55 in cash > $50+5 tourney entry. that's still $5 less ACR is returning to you in beast contributions

let's assume you're breakeven or slightly ahead on the beast. another thing you're not considering is the opportunity cost of your winrate that comes with the games devolving into, if you're lucky, 4 or 5 beast regs playing a 6m game. your winrate is already nerfed by a steep rake and is hit even more by playing the nittiest games you can imagine

again, some people, like you, can play enough hands that the beast is worthwhile. for all but the top 10 (possibly fewer than that), this is hopelessly terrible for them

The contest is not over. Your prize will increase as the contest goes on. If you played last month, look at your contribution and prize there please.

I still disagree with the rake for the tourney ticket, but I don't see it's worth our time to gripe about $5.

What the hell. He doesn't get it. That 5 dollars goes back to acr.

It's funny how in the beginning of your post you said you hoped we could see past the fact that you make more money than anyone else from the beast, as if anyone who think you might be shilling is an idiot.

Then you go on to act like a giant shill who thinks we're all idiots.

Is the rake steep? I thought WPN's rake was at least equal to or less than competing sites.

Yes, many tables blow. That's 2013 poker. Table selection is more difficult. If there are other sites with better table selection available, then perhaps a player should be there instead of WPN.

Yes, the $5 goes back to ACR. My point is you didn't pay for the $5. It's not coming out of your pocket. Someone else bought your ticket and the rake, not you. If you want to play in that tournament and you didn't get on the leaderboard, you pay $55. If you're on the leaderboard, you get in free.

If the discussion boils down to the liability of the rake in a tournament for certain placements, I'm certain no one is getting hosed.

No, I'm not assuming anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot. I'm saying I've done the math, and I'm not seeing how anyone on the leaderboard is losing money in this promotion. If someone disagrees with me, I simply need to see numbers. At that point, I'll know I'm wrong.

this is a preposterous oversimplification and you know it

many tables blow because they're the same 5 or 6 people. forget even blowing up the beast, even if ACR made simple adjustments like massively levelling out the payouts from top to bottom and made 30+ tabling a -EV proposition and thus made the games more accessible to fish and less incentive towards rake chasing it would make a spectacular difference to the quality of the game. if first place was only 3k instead of a massively disproportionate progressive i'd bet my life you'd stop playing there. or at least play MUCH less tables

look, i doubt anyone will ever beat you in the beast, so you obviously have the most to lose if any adjustment is made so i don't blame you one bit for looking out for your best interests, but don't be intentionally obtuse about it and claim you're doing a PSA on why everyone should accept this

How are people arguing about a rake on a free tourney. Its up to you if you want to think of it as a 50 or 55 value.

I look at it as a 55 dollar value because if I didn't win it through the beast I would 100% play in it and pay the rake. The rake is not some evil WPN scam to to shave off 2k from the total prize pool paid out. The beast tourney has often had an overlay of greater than 2k.

The reason why they have this tourney is having big GTDs that are cheap to buy into helps grow the site. The site growing benefits everyone.

srsly?

equity is equity. conceding any of it and just saying "oh it's only $5" when you're paying so steep a price to a promotion that it's unprofitable to a vast majority of players in and off the leaderboard is dumb. if ACR decided to give $52.50 in lieu of a $55 tourney entry and keep $2.50 it would still be more equitable to players than getting the tourney entry

somehow missed this

that makes it even worse. the progression of the payout isn't linear. if i play the same amount of hands and finish with the same spot on the leaderboard that i'm at right now the payout isn't going to increase at the same rate that the number of my hands increase

and if i don't play any more hands for the rest of this contest then my ranking will drop and i'll lose even more than i'm already losing

I hadn't thought of this before, but I suppose it makes sense if you are in at least the top 100, you probably profited from The Beast -- because you aren't contributing .25 every time you see a flop, it is a shared contribution, .25 divided by the number of players in the pot.

This makes it seem less bad to me, I guess... I only played a bit over 21,000 hands last month and got about $150 from the Beast, plus the tourney ticket, so I think it's safe to say I at least broke even on it.

I do wish WPN would let you see your contributions vs reward - but maybe they should only show it for the people who have made it on to the leaderboard, to keep any fish from getting upset.

I do not think that everyone who made the list profited though since the promo is top heavy. IMO the money that is being distributed should be distributed in a proportionate fashion.

QTip played probably 10-15x as many hands as I did last month, yet I got paid about 1/118 the amount of money he was paid... that doesn't seem to make too much sense.

i mean qtip's contributed 20% more than 2nd place and stands to make (if the contest ended right now) twice 2nd place

top-heavy is a spectacular understatement

You can't use the numbers from today to make a statement like this. At the end of the month this player's $20 contribution will not be enough to keep him on the leaderboard and he will receive 0$ compensation for his contribution to the beast.

(so this is to be my first post on the new twoplustwo...)

Some data:

On PT4, I used the following to determine my Beast contribution:
- number of players dealt into the hand: 4-9
- number of players who saw flop: 2-9
- number of wins (in these circumstances) * $0.25

(wishing to maintain some anonymity, I'm only giving summary numbers. In any case, anyone with tracking software can easily check their own)

- I am currently in the top 10% on the leaderboard
- The cash payout in my position currently is 69.8% of my calculated Beast contribution.
-After adding a full $50 ($55-$5rake) from the tournament entry the numbers are still red (I'm not giving the % after adding in the tournament entry b/c, given the previous information, my screenname can be pinpointed). The redness is still significant (each player can check their own data).

Thus, the Beast is not profitable for everyone on the leaderboard.

Consider how many thousands of players outside of the top 478 (the current leaderboard bottom) there would have to be to support the Beast payouts.


As per my previous posts, it is clear that it is the regs outside of the top X number of slots that are paying for this promotion. (I can determine X at the end of the month...off the top of my head I would say the top 5% make some amount of profit and obviously it's the very, very top getting profit enough to make this worthwhile)

Qtip still doesn't get it

You suggested that the $55 tourney ticket should be counted as straight up 55 dollars in your pocket

If you then go and register for the tourney, and actually only get to play 50 dollars worth of tournament instead of 55... guess what they just took 5 dollars out your pocket