Some people continue to act like they don't know how wpn sorts tables.

So what? There is a filter in place where you can also disable the Beast tables.

39suited is in his own little world.

http://i.imgur.com/cWM80dW.jpg

Where are those non-JP tables you speak of? Because they practically never run. Don't be delusional and think that just because they are available, and you can filter to them that you can put in reasonable volume at those tables. Because you can't. This is 8:30 cst on a Saturday night, 50nl-200nl, 6m and FR, Short/Cap/Regular, and there are no non-JP tables running. As opposed to the 24 JP tables running.

Yes, they are available to play. Yes, sometimes a table or two (maybe even three) run. But they are not a good option for a player looking to put in any reasonable amount of hands. Or even a player looking to sit in good games. Recreational players aren't starting games, and if they by chance do, they are more likely to start a JP table due to lobby organizing. Semi-Regs/Regs that know what the Beast does to their winrates are really the only players that seek out the non-JP tables, and those aren't the players you want your entire table to consist of ideally.

Yep, there is a big difference between what is available and what is a realistic option.

The Rec players aren't the ones reading this thread. Encouraging people in this thread to play the non-Beast tables only creates the situation that now exists. Currently the non-Beast tables are comprised of Regs sitting by themselves at tables waiting to the Recreationals to show up, which they never do.

It is funny how somehow you "forgot" to mention that you are owner of dragthebar when QTip is a coach who makes a living of Beast. Sure it is good for your friend but it is terrible for everyone else. So hey it is good for your friends so who cares about anyone else.

I believe you still have a solid realtionship with blackchipoker so no suprise that some skins still push for the Beast.

the beast is killing the games. Regs don't like it fish don't like it (who would like to play with people that slow it down and time out all the time). do you think that is good for anyone??

We have a patological situation when couple of people not only reap the benefits but they also make it boring and unplayable for everyone else.


BTW Dear Winning Network you could at least try getting rid of the beast. Get read of it for like 2 months or so just to test it. If results will be bad you can always return the promo, people won't have any reason to complain.
Just check whether the traffic will increase or decrease without beast and regs masstabling it to reap the benefits.

the software is already pretty decent and Beast rake is the single biggest reason why traffic is still so low.
Seriously guys you can get rid of Beast for like 2-3 months and check yourself if it is true or not.

BTW bad beat jackpot is way better promo than this because it encourage recreatinal players to play bbj tables. you get nothing or very little from the Beast. Basically we all pay so Qtip and others would be able to time down on more tables FML

Why do you keep implying that playing on non Beast tables is a realistic option for players?

Ive sat for hours at NL10 through NL200 and received nothing but hit and run HU action. Id get a hard on if I could get two tables going.

Of course, you know this, it has been repeated ad nauseum to you even if by chance you dont even play at Winning.

I am confused as to what your agenda is here with regards to this issue.

I don't even play on WPN, but check the lobby to see how games are etc and know what these guys are talking about. Affiliates gonna affiliate.

^^ seriously, its so lol. He is literally the only one who still uses the "but there are non-JP tables and you can even filter them out!" excuse.

I can sit on non-JP tables for hours and play only a handful of hands, most of which are heads up or 3 handed with regs.

I have moved to only playing MTTs for now at this site, which is a shame because I have much more experience at cash. I just feel despite the fact that I have less experience in MTTS that I am more +EV at them than cash at this site due to the Beast.

well said

This is the funny thing - people will always complain no matter what you do, especially on 2+2. But barely ever will they give constructive feedback but instead keep on crying all the time.

For all the other "haters" - I am usually playing 4 tables 6max and HU SNG when they pop up, pity that the Omaha and Stud traffic is so low. And yeah, the 5 Big Bet hit and run donks at the latter are quite hilarious

Here is one thing for everyone to think about and I'd appreciate feedback: The vast majority of cash game traffic comes off the Beast tables and did pick up a lot since it has been introduced. Why would WPN remove that without any indication whatsoever on how the traffic without it would develop? Do you honestly think all of a sudden all the fish join and sit at your tables? Most of the fish don't even know what the Beast is ...

Getting rid of the Beast is unlikely, changing the rake contribution depending on the stakes is more plausible. But then again the people on the lower stakes would complain that they have no chance at winning any of the top prizes

There has been constructive criticism. Players just want an industry-standard rake. They'd like to be able to play recreationally without paying into a pot they can never win. It's just too hard to play 130k hands a month.

It's been estimated before that the Beast might make all games below 100nl unbeatable. Others say 50nl. I don't know for sure, I haven't done the math, but pretty much every calculation shows its a significant bb/100 cost.

So are the 10nl tables all standard tables now?

I wasn't around when the Beast was introduced. I came about when BCP made the move to WPN. So I can't really comment about the traffic during that time.

However, I don't see any reason why the traffic would decrease due to the Beast being removed. I do realize that a good portion of WPN's poker profits must come from the mass-multitablers that put in large amounts of hands to breakeven in hopes of winning due to the Beast promotion. And that without that promotion those players aren't as likely to put in as many hands per month, thus raking less for the site.

However, I don't think that would drop profit margins all that significantly, if at all. Since if the Beast is removed, all other players in turn will be paying less rake, and thus players putting in small to medium amounts of volume will be incentivized to play more hands. Not to mention the mass-grinders will also pay less rake , and will likely still put in a lot of volume (albeit likely less than before) to profit via rakeback/bonuses and their now higher winrates at the table.

While also drawing in new players from surrounding sites at a time when those players are just begging for another site to take their business, given the situations at Lock/Merge/etc. While also garnering a reputation increase as a network that listens to their player base and makes changes in the best interest of the players and game.

What is the real drawback of removing the Beast? Especially if the increase in traffic, and the incentive for players to play more while paying less, is likely to garner the same profit margin. They could even garner more volume with better promotions, such as more frequent reload bonuses, and maybe even higher VIP/RB percentages of players willing to put in a large amount of volume.

The problem is, the money just doesn't need to come out of the pockets of the recreational or low-medium volume regs to pay the mass-grinders.

lol, as you said "Most of the fish don't even know what the Beast is ...", then why do you expect the traffic to go down if the beast is removed.

If the fish don't really know what the Beast is then it shouldn't be that hard to replace the Beast with another promotion that more people would be happy with, without any fish die-off.

edit: Oops, looks like I just slowponied tiantianchen's post.

Looool. 39 living in his own little world again.

Saying "Get rid of the Beast" is constructive criticism. It's horrible and would bring more traffic to the site and create a healthier environment for everyone.

+1

I am pretty sure that at least top 5. players get around 100%+rakeback thanks to Beast etc. think about the standard rakeback/value program (around 30-40%) affiliate share ( probably also in that range) and then the money they get from the beast.

Here is some old Qtip blogpost:
http://www.dragthebar.com/poker-blog...jump-post-2617

when he started participate to the beast.

If you add the affiliate share the rake cost (or redistribution) give the top 5 beast grinders signifcantly more than their rake share.

Seriously us paying more rake for fish that were attracted by bad beat jackpot is understandable for me. All of us paying for the top Beast regs so they would be allowed to time down on more tables is riduclous.

So Dear Winning Poker Network give us a chance. Get rid off it at least for a month(tho 2 months would be better to get significant data) hell you can replace it for a month with some recreational players friendly promo too if you just don't want to really get rid of it at all.

We will all know what is better from your profitablity and traffic the network would attract. Getting feedback whether the beast is really good for the games or not can't be that, can it?

i think what needs to happen is wpn needs to see that if they remove the beast, the increased traffic (fwiw probably mostly from regs) will exceed the profits the beast generates from a smaller player pool.

if they do remove the beast, and go to industry standard rake, i do hope they offer some sort of program that will attract casual players.

Doesn't that work out to be in the neighborhood of 14.75bb/100 of Rake?

($239.13 rake / 6484 hands) = 0.0368800123380629
0.0368800123380629 * 100 = 3.688001233806292
3.688001233806292 / .25 = ~14.75bb/100 rake

The scary part is not all of this play has been on JP tables. I think they collect more rake still but could be wrong? Most of it was on JP tables but there were a few regular tables mixed in there when I could find them.

What is the breakdown of money collected at each type of table (JP / Regular)?

If that 14.75 bb per 100 is correct, that is some highway robbery.

I know I have about $95 or so coming back to me from the Beast, but I am sure unless I keep playing that number will go down. It's still nearly 9bb/100 considering that...

To measure the beast rake that you pay, filter your HM/PT for "saw flop" and "won hand." Multiply the number of hands returned by $.25, and there's your contribution. See how it compares to what you get back at the end of the month.

472 hands paid in $118 and getting back just under $95...

Hopefully that increases for you by the end of the month, it does hit harder at 25nl unfortunately. How'd it work out for August?

This is my first month playing seriously on Winning. Well, semi-seriously. I cashed out half my roll on Merge after taking it from $80 to over $2,000 on Merge over the span of a year then somehow managed to tilt off the remaining half in the span of a month...

I remembered I had deposited $100 on Winning and was like... well might as well check it out. I pretty much was just like screw BRM (dumb) but have run good and played pretty well and am up to $400 so far.