People are voting with their wallet -- WPN is the smallest US site, while they should be #1.

That's true.

Also people don't play the non jackpot tables simply because it's always difficult to break from the status quo. Anyone who tries to play the non-jackpot tables are simply going to find themselves playing against a few other regs at best.

The Beast has been very heavily promoted with probably very little understanding to those of whom aren't 2+2 members of how it affects them. Unless a significant number of players start playing the non-jackpot tables it will be difficult for those tables to come to life. And it's unlikely that a signicant number of players will play non-jackpot tables until they do come to life. Catch-22.

Most players are losing players, so most players who play the necessary number of games to win money at the Beast will probably lose money in the long run anyway. In that sense the Bad Beat Jackpot was the lesser of 2 evils.

I swear if I hear one more person explaining how stupid and ignorant we are because we can just play non Beast tables if we want as if none of us ever thought of that my head is going to explode.

It's pretty clear that when people say this, they haven't ever actually tried to put in any significant volume on non-jp tables.

I mean right this moment on 50nl-200nl 6m/FR short + standard there are 25 JP tables running with 2 or more people playing. There are 3 non-JP tables, each with one person sitting waiting. And this is very typical. Usually at most I'll be able to get into 2-3 non-JP tables at a time mixing 6m/FR over 3 or more stakes. And those games are always more reg-infested than JP tables.

Why don't you start more non-JP tables you ask? And sit HU with the table starters? Oh idk, because I would only be sitting with other regs, and practically no fish would ever sit because they would have to scroll to the bottom of the lobby to even see the non-JP tables.

If more winning regs sit on only non-JP tables, that gives the regs more of an incentive to sit on the JP tables, since it will contain less winning regs and a higher ratio of fish. If regs don't sit on the non-JP tables, they will never run because a fish won't see the tables, or will jump into a JP table to get immediate action, rather than waiting alone at a non-JP table.

The majority of players would rather not play on JP tables, but it's not really an option currently. Mass grinders go to JP tables because they benefit from the volume and the Beast. Recreational players go to those tables because that's where they can quickly get action. Regs in turn are forced to go to where the fish are, regardless of if they would prefer to play on non-JP tables or not.

Let WPN put up a popup that shows upon opening the client and explains in detail that the Beast takes money from low raking players and gives it to the mass grinders, while taking a 10% fee on the rake. Then place non-JP tables at the top of the list. And I'd bet more recreational players go to non-JP tables, and subsequently more regs can move there as well.

Lol. They are 3 types. A) pro beast who want the beast to stay. B) someone who had never played cash games on wpn. C)someone who has no idea how a lobby can filter rec players to a certain game.


Kinda sad that wpn wants that extra 2.5 cents per flop instead listening to the overwhelming majority of players. Hell I'd be happy if they just made a promo for that money that rewarded fish and not 24 tablers tha ruin games.

"Dear valued customers, unless you're playing 12 tables for 120+ hours per month, you're going to be losing money with The Beast promotion.

Best of luck at the tables,
Winning Poker Network"


Have that pop up every time you open the client and put the non-JP tables on top please. Your site will suck less and will attract more traffic.

WPN never fails to impress me.

> WPN higher ups check out their paid forum on 2p2
> Sees multiple large threads including a petition to remove the Beast
> Sees multiple large threads about the rampant cheating associated with it
> Cracks open a few whippets
> Creates thread with "We listen to our customers, here's some ****ty dollar turbos!"
> Does a few more whippets
> Increases prominence of Beast, declares it flagship promotion

If the $15k first prize cap is closer to 5% of the total Beast prizepool than 10% it might not be terrible, especially if 20-60 on the leaderboard get a significant pay jump.

As someone who has played 600k hands off bbj tables over the past two years and never even been at the table when it hit, Im disappointed though. Maybe I will hit it before the money all goes away, Im due.

Not sure the beast will even hit the cap with present player pool, this month it is close but that is due to the promotion. July was about 12k, there will be more going in per hand but the 10nl tables no longer contribute (insane that they did).

All the bbj rake is now going into the Beast so it will be much larger.\

And 1st for August right now is $14.2k

Is this not in effect yet? It's September 1st and the 10NL tables are still getting robbed.

The BBJ appears to have stopped growing.

GREATTTTTT!

So the usual TOP 10 PLAYERS every month, now make even MORE MONEY!

GO DULTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

What a JOKE!

REAlly WPN??????????????????????????????????????????

Not really, because the new filter actually works and it aint rocket science.
You forgot some question marks brah.

Fish don't use filters. It's like you don't understand this. You don't understand a lot of things it seems.

The fact that they continue with the Beast despite its unpopularity and despite that it clearly discourages casual players doesn't make any sense. But the fact that it doesn't make sense is exactly what makes sense to me. I know it sounds like double-talk but...

The one thing that I really don't like about the current US online poker environment is that the poker sites are so entertwined with casino games and sports betting. Prior to Blackfriday, when I played on PokerStars, I played for a site that was all about poker. They made the right poker related decisions time and time again. The current US sites are a different animal though.

Bovada/Bodog a for example, is basically a sports site that also happens to offer poker. I think that Bovada/Bodog's explanation of why they changed to the Recreational Player Model wasn't entirely complete. I think that one of the important reasons that they changed to that model was because they didn't want money leaking from their very profitable sports ventures through their online poker sites. I also think that's why the other US sites have for the most part embraced the Recreational Player Model.

I think that Sportsbook and PlayersOnly segregating their players from the rest of the Merge Network specifically to protect their sports bettors from losing money at the poker tables is a clear indication that the networks are thinking along those lines. The Merge Network itself has clearly allowed that segregation to happen to the detriment of play at the poker tables.

I think that the Beast is no different. It discourages casual players from the sports side of the business from playing and losing money on the poker side of the business by charging them an additional tax.

So that's why the Beast makes sense to me. It's because as a promotion it makes no sense.

Beast sucks but what makes everyone think that the casual player knows what the beast is and gives a crap about it. I tell you right now, they don't.

Despite what some people think, casual doesn't equal stupid.

They aren't stupid but they aren't as concerned about it as all of us here. They just want to play.

Maybe they aren't quite as concerned as a whole but they are nevertheless very concerned. I dealt with a lot of new and rec players on another site that, for years, I helped administer. The questions that new, rec and casual players always asked were, "What's the best site to play on?", What's the rake?", What are their promotions?", etc. They ask those questions because even the worst player in the world can be a good consumer. I think that's what a lot of people on 2+2 don't realize. Those type of questions aren't really welcome on 2+2 (at least not without a lot of clever non-responses), so they are usually asked elsewhere.

On 2+2 I frequently hear reg's state that rec players, etc. just don't care about things like the rake. They very much do. Consumerism and the ability to play good poker have very little to do with each other. Most of us are good consumers long before we ever hit a poker table. Even casual players shop around before they decide where to deposit their money.

I'm a rec player and a fish in today's games. I'm not a degen gambler, so it's not like I just need action and will deposit anywhere. I'm aware of EV and generally try to avoid -EV spots.

I enjoy playing a few hours a week and I try to win. Even though I don't care enough to study anymore or work on my game, I know enough not to get involved in an unbeatable (for me) high rake game.

Yes, but you are informed seeing that you are a member of this forum. Not to mention your post count. Its not about working on your game. A lot of casual players don't know about 2p2.

That's true. I guess I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that most US online players are 2p2ers.

A losing/fish live player asked me last week, "Do you still play online?" (we used to talk a lot about 5ish years ago, haven't seen him in years)

I said, "yes."

He asked, "where should I play, I haven't played since FTP shut down?"

My response:

Don't play on revolution because they'll never pay you if you win. Don't play on merge because they take a long time to pay and are getting less and less friendlier towards their players. Don't play on winning because their rake is unbeatable.

So I recommended Bovada.

Not because I particularly like Bovada (anon tables are blah, and 4 tables max are blah). But at least they pay their players and have beatable games.

At .10/.25 you still win .23 cents in a 2-player hand that had .50 involved. Thats just horrible. That has not changed