US online poker options are deteriorating rapidly. I like to keep funds on as many sites as I can, but that number has been shrinking lately.

I hear great things about Winning -- great service, trustworthy operators, and great cashout speeds. But I haven't deposited yet, for one reason -- the Beast/BBJ rake.

Can we have a discussion about modifying this program somehow? If removing it isn't an option, then surely some reasonable modifications could be considered?

I would love to deposit on this site, and from the looks of the petition in the zoo, so would countless others.

US players are tired of the crappy options, and the situation is only getting worse. I think there's potential for growth on this network -- but much, much, more growth if the structure of the BBJ/Beast is addressed.

Somebody at Winning thought it was a good investment to sponsor this subforum, so apparently they're interested in having a stronger presence on 2+2 and in growing their brand. Hopefully we can have some good discussions here and possibly find a win-win solution to this issue.

You are correct, removing The Beast is no option however they are considering changes to the current setup.

I would like to clarify that the rake for mtt's is not bad and the rake for sngs is the lowest I have ever seen. I don't play cash so I can't comment, but everyone seems to complain about it.

What raise the rake like carbon did is that there other option?

One exception is the 6max and 9max hyper turbo SNGs, which have the highest rake around (even double the standard in some cases).

Please keep in mind The Beast and BBJ components are not "rake" - it's all paid back in promotions.

We did some analysis on The Beast earlier this year, and we found all of the players we investigated actually came out on top - ie: the value they get from The Beast appears to outweigh the extra "The Beast" amount they're paying on each hand.

The BBJ is another story, as it's obviously more of a "lottery" style promotion. I just wanted to point out the distinction though.

I don't see how this is even possible.

Where is the extra money coming from if everybody comes out ahead?

This program must have changed -- I was led to believe that if you don't play at least 100k hands a month you'll never win anything.

April beast paid 568 places so if you were in 568, you got $55 back. This is certainly more than you would have paid in beast rake.

Who wants a Satellite ticket? I would rather have $25 cash even if the house gets the other $30.

The players themselves are partly at fault when considering the BBJ rake. They have the option of not playing those tables but they simply play them anyway. Maybe if the player pool grows some non-BBJ tables will start opening. On other sites, BBJ and non-BBJ tables have been able to co-exist.

It really mystifies me that no one is playing LHE games on the network considering the rake is just as low as Merge's and PokerStars. Maybe an increase in the player pool will eventually bring the LHE games to life.

I actually made some extra money by getting on the beast ladder. It doesnt much play to get on the beast ladder.

Im getting 87$ + a tourney ticket (worth 55$) this month from the beast and I rake roughly 600$

Rake at PLO8 cash is far too high, even though the games run very seldom, they do run. And the amount you rake when pots are split is insanely high. You have to realize that these split pot games arent the same as holdem, whereas not one person wins every pot.

How much is rake+BBJ at nl100 comparing to PS and Fulltilt ? At PS/FT it seems like 6bb/100.

If there are LHE games running I will deposit. But not before then.

Noob Q, but do you earn rakeback on BBJ/beast rake or just normal rake?

If just normal rake, I may have to play on a different site or just stick to HU.

The BBJ/Beast deduction from each hand isn't actually rake. So, no, you do not get rakeback paid on that component.

you see, but it is rake though. especially when you take a chunk of the jackpot when it hits. seriously, get rid of it.

Any time there is money taken from the pot that is rake... just because you have "equal" chances to win the BBJ doesn't mean it's not rake, because your chance of ever seeing the money lost to the BBJ is so slim.

Not exactly sure how The Beast works yet... but from what I can tell by looking at the leader board for The Beast it seems that only the top x% are getting rewards from it... so essentially anyone who can't play all day long to keep up with these guys are losing their money to The Beast rake.

I will never play a table that is a jackpot table. You seriously need to eliminate this. Getting rid of their BBJ was the only smart move Merge has made since BF

BBJ/Beast is absolutely a form of rake.

First of all, very few people will ever hit a BBJ. (More people might see a benefit from the Beast, but that money has to come out of the pockets of players who don't rake as much).

Secondly, according to your own website there is a 10% fee for all jackpot contributions (http://www.blackchippoker.eu/thebeast/)

How can you possibly have the stance that BBJ/Beast deductions aren't a form of rake?

Is this really true?

Neither the site or the network takes a penny and every cent taken is given back via the Bad Beat Jackpot or Beast payouts?

The network takes 10% of the BBJ and beast money. I know other sites that have had BBJ take a percentage to the house as well. I think it's fairly standard.

Yes, Im aware of that. I wanted the Rep to reconcile that reality with the statement he made that I quoted fwiw.

My apologies, I stand corrected and I'll be more careful in future. Thanks for pointing that out.

No problem Black.