Yes. They basically take out what is a BBJ drop but instead use it for the beast.

What a disaster. So unless you're 40 tabling or whatever, it is just extra rake. That's horrible.

A large number of players get more from it than what they put in. I heard WPN has some numbers coming soon to show contribution and return.

With the new 2 week format, I'm quite certain teh top players will end up with less and the middle players with more.

Right now I would get exactly nothing after playing 1k hands at 25nl and paying 1bb per flop, it looks like. While some guys playing a million tables are going to get $1k+.

100% sure I'll never be playing beast tables again after the 15th. It's a terrible promotion that only favors a small minority of players at the expense of everyone else.

And it makes the games suck.

It's all relative to your skill vs your opponents, etc.

The rake+bbj at 25nl is a hair less than the rake at the Stars 10nl games (at least the last time I checked it there, which was years ago). I know some players back then had shiny winrates at those stakes on stars. The difference is the opponents at WPN 25nl games aren't complete noobs—some of them are quite skilled. Many others are simply tight, and it can be difficult to clobber a tight player—it's tough to beat good cards.

I rarely play as few as 25 tables at the low stakes, but in those sessions, I've been able to break even. I do think if I were playing fewer tables, I could have green numbers. Table selection is the biggest factor for a winrate. My table selection at WPN is "oh look...another table." There are a few players in my database with green numbers at the low stakes. If a player is just starting out, it's unlikely they'll beat the rake + bjj at the small stakes.

Obviously, the higher the stakes, the 25 cent drop plays a much smaller role.

QTip, are you MamaCoolJ?

Yes.

How do you play so many tables? Is there any software to help multitabling on bcp?

the fact that you're the one stepping up to dissuade concerns here is laughable! is there anyone walking the planet, aside from direct investors of the network, that has a more biased opinion of this promotion?

I can't wait to see these numbers you speak of because if it turns out to be like what most competent players expect, the <200 players that are actually showing an overall net profit from this promotion makes it virtually criminal.

and the other 90% of players who end up getting zilch while footing the whole damn bill for the Beast, what about them?

look, I know mama/WPN/the rest of the RB whores have a real nice racket going on with this promo, and I understand there is very little incentive for WPN to try and become #1 in the US market because it does little but put a big damn target on your back, but none of this changes the fact that THE BEAST IS THE WORST PROMOTION IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF ONLINE POKER!!!

let me break it down. rather than try to become a large rake generating entity, WPN has virtually taken the route of appealing to a very small subset of super mega grinders. these rakeback whores put in giant volume around the clock to ensure that the games are always running and the rake is always cranking away.

unfortunately, though, instead of being an honest business (like Stars) and just weighting their VIP system to heavily reward those who put in the monster volume, they cap their VIP rewards at ~48% and offset the rest of it by having us, the non-mega grinding regulars, pay the remaining rewards to said rakeback whores. the regs have a hard time finding good games because the whores are at every damn table nitting it up. the fish get absolutely pummeled by the nits/regs/double rake. its just an all around terrible environment. on top of all this WPN ****ing rakes the beast!!!

I urge every single serious player out there to only bumhunt these games. you're likely on multiple sites anyways. please don't contribute to this madness unless the spot is too good to pass up. I pretty much guarantee you, with the double rake you're paying, there are plenty of tables on Bovada/Intertops/SWC/Merge where you're bb/100 is higher and you don't have the whore nits at every table.

Lowering bank roll requirements = making $$$?

damn wish I knew that trick when I got started

You people complaining about the beast are all right in that the promotion is pretty bad but you're all wrong it's that it's not that end of the world

this is somethign that goes without saying about acr, and it isn't said for a big reason: there's more fish on acr than there on ftp/stars when american players were cut off. Way more. There's some decent grinders on the site, the mega grinders are actually all prety good, but some of the lag regulars are as awful as any reg fish ever.

There's money to be made here so stop complaining. it's never other people's fault that you can't make money from poker. I hope you see why. So enough is enough

Kevin: You misunderstand me. I'm not attempting to dissuade concerns.

Some said only the top couple people get more than they put in. I'm certain that's incorrect, but we'll save that discussion for when/if the numbers come out. I doubt anyone outside their company has analyzed the numbers as much as I.

It's their site, they run it however they wish. Good promotion / Bad promotion, I don't care either way.

If/When the time comes I don't feel I benefit sufficiently from their site, I won't play there. I suggest others do the same analysis and make whatever decision is most beneficial to them.

If that time comes for me, I certainly wouldn't feel compelled to take the time to type long posts about why I disagree with their business decisions and what everyone should do. I guess you and I are just different people in that regard. I often see people play casino games or stand in line to buy lottery tickets. I know they're losing, but I just shrug. Maybe that makes you the better person; I just don't care that much.

Could you explain this? I don't see how it will change things much.

Lol. There are so many more fish on FTP/Stars right now. Having tens of thousands of more players will do that. I would probably say there's a better ratio of fish there as well.

Your last paragraph is ******ed. It can absolutely be other people's fault that you can't make money from poker. Whether it be cheating, triple rake, super bad games caused by bad promos, etc. You need to be so much better at poker to turn a profit on WPN than any other site available. The people turning a profit from poker alone has to be so incredibly small on WPN it's sickening. And skill level isn't the problem.

If you want to earn a profit on WPN you need to game the system by raping The Beast. Or take the honest route and play MTTs. Cash is almost unbeatable no matter how many people tell you otherwise.

That's why I said I hope you see why it's anybody else's fault that you don't make money in poker.

When I said there's a lot of fish on wpn, I hoped you would understand that I'm talking about the amount of fish per table vs the amount of regs. That can only be what I meant.

I also hoped you would understand that I wasn't referring to ftp/stars now, I was hoping you'd see where I wrote that I was referencing ftp/stars in the time before American players were forced off the network. I was also hoping that you get that anyone who plays on acr now doesn't have the option of playing on ftp/stars. If you have that option... then wtf are you complaining about, go play there.

Nobody owes you any money. You can't make money here, go somewhere else. It's very possible to make money on acr. If you can't, then get out. You're not the first guy who couldn't beat poker, most people are in your situation.

I won't miss you, acr own't miss your 450$ banroll that u use to grind nl25, and I really hope one day you realize that success in poker isn't a given and it's up to you to work hard enough to have it, not up to the players to give it to you or the poker room to create an environment conducive to you making money.

This is mostly true.

In my current PT4 database, at 25nl the rake is making 18bb/100.

Now, this might be partly stylistic, and it might be lower for different players who win fewer pots (not necessarily worse players, just a stylistic difference). But I don't know if anybody alive can beat that long term.

We are all rakeback grinders on WPN.

I'm sure fish are going broke faster. And it's clearly being siphoned to the mass tablers. It's bad for the game. Period.

It's the worst promotion in the history of online poker. Even if it is "working" for the site. And I'm sure it is, in the short term.

The negative consequences of this promotion are hard to quantify, but they have got to be massive and far reaching.

Well, the network wins because they amass a ton of money before the DOJ drops the ban hammer on them. They don't care about long term health of the games.

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

you havent had a winning session and are moving up the ranks

what other explanation is there other than you are playing with less and less big blinds in your account

Or maybe it could mean the beast lb ranks? Jesus **** sakes didn't think I really needed to explain that to anyone.

What? You are moving up the beast list thing? That's what you meant by "moving up the ranks"?

hahaha

It's terrible. I just wish people that benefitted from it would not mindlessly defend it. It's beyond horrible for the games. It does everything a promo shouldn't do. Rake the game at an industry high, encourage mass tablers to play more tables them they can handle, and give almost no money back to the fish.

Without the beast, wpn would be by far the best network for USA players. Unfortunately they continue to roll out the worst promo ever created by a poker site.

Yes that is exactly what I meant. And to be honest I think you might have been the only one not smart enough to understand that. Why don't you just get the **** out of here unless you can bring some insight to this thread.

Hahaha

This.

Please join my boycott starting October 16. Play at normal 6max nlhe tables only. Starve the beast!

says the guy who hasnt had a winning session on wpn