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Old 02-13-2018, 05:48 PM   #26
persianpunisher
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by Knuckle Puck View Post
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2016/...deos-23891.htm

Also suggested by high caliber and respected players on the network like Thrash370.
Then when they figure out how to cheat the camera we'll have to move to a eyescan system.
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Old 02-13-2018, 05:50 PM   #27
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by Thrash370 View Post
I should state that I don't feel everyone should have a webcam. I feel that would be a terrible entry point for newcomers that would turn them away. Only accounts that have a reasonable suspicion should have to go through this process.
I thought it was implied, but the troll didn't understand. Obviously agree.
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Old 02-13-2018, 05:52 PM   #28
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
You posted player names out-of-context and said they were bots/multi accounting. You realize how stupid that is, right? I'm glad you at least could muster up a few screen shots of screen shots from Joey's video though.
I've been complaining about this long before Joey put out the first video on this and none of those players are banned unless it happened this morning. They did it several times yesterday. I also 'mustered' up shots of them timing out on the table, several times. You realize how stupid your assumptions are, right?
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Old 02-13-2018, 05:56 PM   #29
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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This feature involves the button being disabled after pressed for x hours of play for that player. That way players aren't spammed while playing.
The point is not put it on the players to 'suspect' a bot on their table. if you put a captcha on everyone, then it would immediately get rid of the bots. Most recreational players that are in the micro stakes games wouldn't even know if they are playing a bot. They wouldn't expect a bot so why would they click on the bot captcha system on someone unless they have a large enough sample size on them and even at that, many recreational players don't even play with a hud to even determine how many hands they have on players.

This bot captcha idea seems to favor just the regs on ACR but not recreational players. I guess us recreational players (that play on WPN site less than 10 hours a week) will have to rely on the regs that play daily and almost 5-12 hours a day on the site to protect us recreational players which to me is wrong.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:02 PM   #30
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by a dewd View Post
I've been complaining about this long before Joey put out the first video on this and none of those players are banned unless it happened this morning. They did it several times yesterday. I also 'mustered' up shots of them timing out on the table, several times. You realize how stupid your assumptions are, right?
Again, if you had mentioned that or shown anything you are talking about in the first comment it would make sense, but you made a comment out-of-context. You know how many times people accuse others of botting just because they get owned?
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:09 PM   #31
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by Whitelextown View Post
The point is not put it on the players to 'suspect' a bot on their table. if you put a captcha on everyone, then it would immediately get rid of the bots. Most recreational players that are in the micro stakes games wouldn't even know if they are playing a bot. They wouldn't expect a bot so why would they click on the bot captcha system on someone unless they have a large enough sample size on them and even at that, many recreational players don't even play with a hud to even determine how many hands they have on players.

This bot captcha idea seems to favor just the regs on ACR but not recreational players. I guess us recreational players (that play on WPN site less than 10 hours a week) will have to rely on the regs that play daily and almost 5-12 hours a day on the site to protect us recreational players which to me is wrong.
Trying to assess if someone is a bot without a sample size is no different than closing your eyes and throwing a dart but having no clue where the dart board is. All of the bot threads are coming from people with sample sizes and it's in the regs best interest to report bots constantly as it cuts into their take. I'm sure this sounds elitist in some way but at the end of the day I can't see a different proposal that would work (but would be interested to hear it if you had one)

Edit: I see you're proposing captchas on everyone which is a proposal.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:29 PM   #32
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

What is the timing on the captchas and what happens if you miss it?

I play very early AMs a lot. I will click the fold button when I am in CO and then go make myself an espresso. I know I need to get back to the table when the alert goes off for my turn on the next hand. If a captcha shows up while I am away from my desk, what happens?
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:49 PM   #33
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

I could not be happier about having to make opponents fill out a captcha if they're suspicious. Please make this available for jackpots as well as normal tables! Thank you for coming up with a decent solution.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:02 PM   #34
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
This is what everyone wants. A god damn witch hunt, right?
You need to stop posting. But ya, it'd be nice to have a witch hunt seeming as their are witches operating bots on WPN. Maybe your mind can't figure that out so leave it to the peeps with brain cells and stop cluttering up threads.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:24 PM   #35
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
You posted player names out-of-context and said they were bots/multi accounting. You realize how stupid that is, right? I'm glad you at least could muster up a few screen shots of screen shots from Joey's video though.
It isn't stupid. What is stupid is to sit here and just blindly call it stupid, like you did.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:08 PM   #36
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

Address this post to ACR's CEO, please.
At what time is the twitch stream being held and what URL can I visit to watch it?


1) Captcha targeting being wielded by the playerbase is a step in the correct direction, but supporting similar sentiment already stated in this thread - it's simply not enough in order to maintain a consistently safe playing environment. Regs will be able to detect or feel out users who are using macros or bots.. but what about regs who should be welcomed and encouraged to continue playing on the site? How does anyone benefit from only regs and bots frequenting tables? Recreational players having the ability to captcha target does next to nothing and can be compared to shooting in the dark - there's little to no experience or idea of where and what they are trying to take down.

Solution: On top of allowing the playerbase to wield a weapon against bots through the targetting mechanic, have captcha requests randomly generate every 30 minutes to an hour and reward the playerbase through a big blind or something when completed properly and the quickest (similar to the flying chip promotion you had earlier in the year) to encourage recreationals to continue playing. Create a report button within the client itself - with a dropdown box for whatever rule is suspected of being broken. Forcing your userbase to enter a customer support chat is ludicrous and has done little to nothing to stop bots up to this point, we need real time policing.

2) Improve your transparency to your userbase and step your security team up. Not a professional on this so there's no real recommendations to be made - but from what has been seen on these forums from representatives hailing from WPN itself, the responses made are absolutely laughable and in no way professional in the slightest. Your userbase feels as though they're helplessly crying wolf (aka bots) over and over again while getting laughed at and being offered little to no help here on these forums itself. Only a matter of time before they're eaten up and gone completely. Can't even begin to imagine what happens in customer support chats behind closed doors.

Solution: Create a list every two weeks of accounts that have been banned and include the reason as to why. Include the country they hail from as well as their date their account was created in order to instill better faith and trust within your community. We see and hear absolutely nothing from the security side of WPN - and CLEARLY there's been little to no security measurements being set into place to eliminate cheaters from the site. Change that. What are you trying to hide?

3) Eastern European accounts are a serious threat to the integrity of your site. Isn't this America's Cardroom? I'm not saying ban them entirely - but pay greater attention to the frequency in which they are created and the actions those accounts take, especially within the cash game sections of your site. There's countless numbers of threads within the WPN section of these forums with clear evidence towards bots - and like no response from the WPN team whatsoever, are you kidding me?

Solution: THE BEAST and SIT & CRUSH promotions need to be taken away (at least for the time being until the player pool is more human friendly). This isn't helping your actual userbase in any way because 70% of the players (especially within THE BEAST) are bots to begin with, so you're practically only rewarding cheating. Kill it entirely, get creative and think of something else - we deserve to be compensated for all of the bull**** we've went through. This may sound comical or way out of proportion - but bring people into your security team who actually know what they are doing (Joey Ingram, users from 2+2, etc).. people who clearly have diligence to keeping an environment fair / loyal within the online poker community and can keep transparency on both sides. We see and hear nothing. Implement WEBCAM requests to boost security / confirm users actually being human and use the same methods Poker Stars has in the past.

Clearly care about this site and want to continue playing here, but I think I speak for more than myself when I say that I will not be putting another cent into America's Cardroom until massive visible changes and an overhaul is made to instill faith into your loyal userbase / improve security.

Last edited by z00ted; 02-13-2018 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:24 PM   #37
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

and the question i want answered

what is going to be done with funds if a player is determined to be using unfair gameplay?

that is the issue also here
its insane that you want us to do the work and then wpn keeps the cash hmmm
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:27 PM   #38
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
Again, if you had mentioned that or shown anything you are talking about in the first comment it would make sense, but you made a comment out-of-context. You know how many times people accuse others of botting just because they get owned?
What is your purpose in going after everyone and non-stop defending WPN all over this site? Do you believe that you are being objective? You absolutely are not.

There is a reason why all the regs are now thinking lots of various types of cheating are going on. It's not all in people's heads or even remotely close to it. To pretend like there isn't mass cheating going on at every level and game type on WPN is worse than sticking your head in the sand, it's more like cutting it off, because only a person without a working brain would deny it.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:31 PM   #39
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by Knuckle Puck View Post
This is worthless.

Humans can click buttons at the direction of a program making decisions.

Suspicious player = webcam or ban. Stop with this captcha garbage.

Doubling down on a failed system is the worst decision WPN could have made. Congrats, you did it.
This please. It would clean it up really fast. I play a lot and I would play every single session on a webcam if it cleaned up the games.

There are ways around this other stuff.

Last edited by WiCane; 02-13-2018 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:43 PM   #40
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by z00ted View Post
.....3) Eastern European accounts are a serious threat to the integrity of your site. Isn't this America's Cardroom? I'm not saying ban them entirely - but pay greater attention to the frequency in which they are created and the actions those accounts take, especially within the cash game sections of your site. There's countless numbers of threads within the WPN section of these forums with clear evidence towards bots - and like no response from the WPN team whatsoever, are you kidding me? .....
So many of these accounts come in through PokerKing, maybe some pressure on Dobrosevic to clean up their act would help. Some little things like..... verification paperwork for accounts.

I would not be surprised if the main account t was on a skin owned by WPN and the bogus ones off the non-verification skins. Btc in, btc out, verification only if asked....what could go wrong?
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:44 PM   #41
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by WorldzMine View Post
What is your purpose in going after everyone and non-stop defending WPN all over this site? Do you believe that you are being objective? You absolutely are not.

There is a reason why all the regs are now thinking lots of various types of cheating are going on. It's not all in people's heads or even remotely close to it. To pretend like there isn't mass cheating going on at every level and game type on WPN is worse than sticking your head in the sand, it's more like cutting it off, because only a person without a working brain would deny it.
+1


also what about the tournament exploit? That kinda needs to be fixed first I would think?
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:48 PM   #42
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by netgod44 View Post
and the question i want answered

what is going to be done with funds if a player is determined to be using unfair gameplay?

that is the issue also here
its insane that you want us to do the work and then wpn keeps the cash hmmm
Yup, I think it's a step in the right direction but players losing funds to bots is no bueno anyway you slice it.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:51 PM   #43
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

I don't know how many times this has to be said.

THERE ARE BOTS THAT SOLVE CAPTCHAS.

While I appreciate WPN taking steps to resolve the problem, this is just like slapping on a band-aid to a slit jugular.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:27 PM   #44
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by aqb View Post
I don't know how many times this has to be said.

THERE ARE BOTS THAT SOLVE CAPTCHAS.

While I appreciate WPN taking steps to resolve the problem, this is just like slapping on a band-aid to a slit jugular.
Sounds like this is a definite, can you provide any links for us that are uneducated on the subject? I know nothing of bots other then the cloned stats that I have seen from groups of bot players.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:40 PM   #45
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by Sir Huntington View Post
Sounds like this is a definite, can you provide any links for us that are uneducated on the subject? I know nothing of bots other then the cloned stats that I have seen from groups of bot players.
You know when you go to register on a site and you have to enter a word/number into a captcha box? They are distorted in shape and placement so automated programs cannot register. If the captcha is clear standard font, it can be recognized by bots that auto reg on sites and then pollute them with spam or something.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:34 PM   #46
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

Ya I shoulda known what that is called seeing as I've been dealing with them for a decade or more lol.


Are there bots that can deal with this? I've gotten them wrong rarely enough that a bot shouldn't be able to catch it.... but I know dick about bots.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:40 PM   #47
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

I know AI exists that can read that using machine learning although I doubt that the technology is combined with poker bots yet. I wouldn't rule it out though.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:26 PM   #48
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

Quote:
Originally Posted by aqb View Post
I don't know how many times this has to be said.

THERE ARE BOTS THAT SOLVE CAPTCHAS.

While I appreciate WPN taking steps to resolve the problem, this is just like slapping on a band-aid to a slit jugular.
Also, couldn't a human who's deploying bots just solve the captchas for his bots?

It seems like a captcha makes it slightly annoying for botters (and extremely annoying for non-botters) but doesn't actually prevent botting.
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:30 AM   #49
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

Quote:
Originally Posted by a dewd View Post
So many of these accounts come in through PokerKing, maybe some pressure on Dobrosevic to clean up their act would help. Some little things like..... verification paperwork for accounts.

I would not be surprised if the main account t was on a skin owned by WPN and the bogus ones off the non-verification skins. Btc in, btc out, verification only if asked....what could go wrong?
Every account I found a little weird, when I check them on SS seam to be on this king poker skin just like you said.

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Old 02-14-2018, 01:04 AM   #50
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Re: Empowering Players at Americas Cardroom

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Originally Posted by z00ted View Post
Solution: [I]THE BEAST and SIT & CRUSH promotions need to be taken away (at least for the time being until the player pool is more human friendly). This isn't helping your actual userbase in any way because 70% of the players (especially within THE BEAST) are bots to begin with, so you're practically only rewarding cheating.
I agree with the other points you made but this is a poor attitude towards a really good promotion that makes ACR, well...ACR. If you don't think recs (or all player types rather) are motivated by these promotions, you're wrong. If you think the bots aren't winning at the games pre-rakeback, you're wrong. A lot of them are actually crushing and if you think ones with small winrates would go away without these promotions, you're also wrong.

If you bring the game integrity to an acceptable level, low levels of this promotion become easier, the games become easier, and everyone has more fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrash370 View Post
I should state that I don't feel everyone should have a webcam. I feel that would be a terrible entry point for newcomers that would turn them away. Only accounts that have a reasonable suspicion should have to go through this process.
This.

And please please PLEASE don't let every John Smith have the ability to captcha people. If you want to give credible and proven people the power to do this, who won't abuse it because they lost a pot vs someone they have 30 hands with...fine.
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