Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Notices

Winning Poker Network Sponsored Support forum for AmericasCardroom, BlackChip Poker, and Truepoker.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-24-2017, 07:53 PM   #1
adrianok
stranger
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 8
Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Hello everyone, my name is Anton, i'm new here and i would like to apologize in advance for my english.

I'm playing on the WPN tables, and me and a lot my friends, who of course are also playing - mentioned about a dozen bots that are playing with us.

Let me start with the list of the players:
vatahel - Czech Republic
dzustborabo - Czech Republic
8etman - Czech Republic
Ten5pirit - Czech Republic
Getana - Czech Republic
PokerWinX - Czech Republic
CameToLose - Czech Republic
sh1nob1 - Czech Republic
Mik666 - Thailand
lightochan - Latvia
DaWINcI77 - Latvia
TopGeer - Latvia
BulletStorm - Germany
BriAllin - Russia
MaDfRiStaiLER - Russia

I have stats on the mentioned players:

https://gyazo.com/cb2e6f595c94f9d42b62fab8901c7dee

https://gyazo.com/29daf465aac61c289f232c2c35679287

https://gyazo.com/a2724336a8a65a254d3860037722bcba

Also, a couple of hands.

https://gyazo.com/062c92f14817705bfa1d91ec1ff7655c

https://gyazo.com/0ca4732c4cc5978e2e6c10dee410bd50

The similarity about those players that i listed above, is enormous.
1) All of those players, are registered from Europe, most of them are from the Czech Republic, and also an interesting fact, all of them registered at the network on a period between July 2016 - August 2016.

2) They are opening with a minraise nevermind what are the blinds.

3) They are playing with a same "timings"

4) They are making a re-entry until it's possible and nevermind how many re-entries they have made already and what are the blinds on that moment. I understand that with that type of field it might be profitable to re-enter 3, maybe even 4 times, but to make a dozen of re-entries when the first place is around 25 buy-ins, i'm very doubtful that it is a +ev and that a human will do so.

5) As you can see, their W$WSF is abnormally high.

I'm really asking you to take this seriously, because after all, i think all of us, the honest players, would like to play against each other and not against a machine.

I will try to get some more hands, some more stats, but i think, all that i mentioned already is enought to start an investigation about this issue.

Thank you in advance.
adrianok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2017, 09:38 PM   #2
Thrash370
See my staking thread
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Twitching
Posts: 1,045
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Going to let this thread stand as it meets the requirements of trying to bring evidence. Any posts of BOTS ARE RAMPANT BECAUSE I SAID SO that aren't constructive will however be shot down in this thread.

That being said OP thank you for your concern for the poker community that led you to gather evidence. I have seen some of the posts over on the gypsy poker forum where you originate from.

All of that being said 2 and 4 are good for establishing patterns that they are all following together but at the same time are things reasonable humans do. Your logic is faulty on "but to make a dozen of re-entries when the first place is around 25 buy-ins, i'm very doubtful that it is a +ev and that a human will do so." If you are in a $10 mtt for 8 buyins odds are you are not getting back $80 in EV on your 8th buyin but if your 8th buyin nets you $12 in EV it is in fact +EV as it only cost you $10.

My recommendation is not to get that focused on that aspect and to contact others who have exposed past bot rings that are good at statistical forensic analysis.
Thrash370 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2017, 09:57 PM   #3
vizion88
adept
 
vizion88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NOVA
Posts: 1,108
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Always see most of these players in pretty much every MTT I play.

Played an interesting hand this week vs PokerWinX where he SNAP called my shove on the river with 10 high when I turned the nut flush (he also had T6) for a 350bb pot

Last edited by vizion88; 06-24-2017 at 10:03 PM.
vizion88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2017, 10:55 PM   #4
augie_
missed out on bitcoin
 
augie_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 20,985
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

there are many donks and some good players on your list. i've played thousands of hands with most of those players and never once suspected any of them were bots or even the same person. your evidence is almost non-existent. the only reason this thread shouldn't be deleted is my brilliant reply which you're currently reading.

what is your name on WPN, adrianok?
augie_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2017, 11:34 PM   #5
nee
centurion
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 197
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

I don't want to mention any of those guys by name, and I will double check their stats tomorrow when I play them, but a couple of those guys are laughably bad, like absolutely terrible, and a couple are incredibly straightforward and exploitable. Guys I am thrilled to see at my table. I would not be concerned about them being bots.
nee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2017, 12:32 AM   #6
aqb
grinder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 525
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Thanks for your concern and attempting to point out some evidence.

First and foremost, what is your sample on these guys?

MTT samples are not typically not that big in itself, and a lot of the stats that you mentioned take a reasonable size to converge.

If you have video evidence of #3, it would be easy to justify. Self-reporting may lead to bias and if you recorded every one of these players acting, and compared the videos by the amount of time they took to act and we saw a pattern, then we may be on to something. Otherwise it's moot.

As mentioned above, #5 really really depends on sample size.
aqb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2017, 01:34 AM   #7
Maybe_memories
old hand
 
Maybe_memories's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Soon to be.... Canadian Bacon
Posts: 1,371
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

I guess I can understand your suspicion. I have caught myself surprised by some timings from a few of these guys, in terms of how quickly they can get out a precise bet that must be typed in. Honestly tho, that's the only time. A lot of these guys have some spew that would be difficult to program into a bot.

There's also little chance, in my mind, that they are connected. Likely not part of a bot ring or anything. I don't think they all play similarly. And I don't think they're good enough at poker to consider that people got together to get a bot ring started with mediocre/spewy bots.

I wouldn't be surprised if a few of those SN's were bots, but I do doubt its all of them. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some of these accounts were being used by multiple players either.

We could all pile HH's together and maybe find out for sure. That's the noble thing to do. But is it really that bad with them around if they are bots?
Maybe_memories is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2017, 01:59 AM   #8
wolfbook
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 86
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Non-humans should not be in the game. Period! Some of you guys are delusional by making comments like, "well if they are bad bots it is okay." You are too short sighted to see simple stuff like a couple of new lines of programming and maybe they aren't so bad anymore. Or that break even bots can take a ton of money off the site in the form of Sit & Crush. Or when a site with 10 bots becomes a site with 100 bots. Geez guys wake up.
wolfbook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2017, 02:43 AM   #9
Sev Mile Dogg
grinder
 
Sev Mile Dogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 597
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

I see these guys around a lot. Not sure how many hands I have on them. Think I play against ten5pirit the most... he just seems like a crusher that over play top pair OTF often. But in a few small gtd mtt I saw him re enter in the latter stage of the mtt which financial didn't make since Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)
Sev Mile Dogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2017, 03:09 AM   #10
xBIGx
centurion
 
xBIGx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 136
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

MaDfRiStaiLER - Saw this one play at a final table and man they run so good. I can't see how botting can make a player hit so good.

Anyone have hand history cause I would love to study and be ITM 35.5% too!
xBIGx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2017, 03:29 AM   #11
adrianok
stranger
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 8
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

I have around 3k hands on each, on the Czech trio: dzustborabo, 8etman, Ten5pirit around 5k

...

augie, adrianok20
adrianok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2017, 03:33 AM   #12
adrianok
stranger
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 8
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

All those guys plays similar to those, who were playing at the 888 and Party. All of them are now banned on 888 and Party, but still not on WPN.

All same stats that i mentioned. High W$WSF, Low FTCB, Similar RFI
adrianok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2017, 04:04 AM   #13
xBIGx
centurion
 
xBIGx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 136
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianok View Post
All those guys plays similar to those, who were playing at the 888 and Party. All of them are now banned on 888 and Party, but still not on WPN.

All same stats that i mentioned. High W$WSF, Low FTCB, Similar RFI
If they're banned from those sites they should definitely be banned from WPN. Get a Sharkscope account and check out how much they play a day. SS has alot of details but doesn't count rebuys.
xBIGx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2017, 09:26 AM   #14
onemoetime
enthusiast
 
onemoetime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Univ Notre Dame
Posts: 82
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

I would love to hear WPN's take on this.
onemoetime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2017, 12:06 PM   #15
adrianok
stranger
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 8
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Look at the SS of the 5 CZ players.

https://gyazo.com/0c32bf8b1ebe3d6c8c7a934be996a5df
adrianok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2017, 12:27 PM   #16
Thrash370
See my staking thread
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Twitching
Posts: 1,045
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianok View Post
Look at the SS of the 5 CZ players.

https://gyazo.com/0c32bf8b1ebe3d6c8c7a934be996a5df
If they are part of a stable that mandates they always reenter their sharkscopes would make perfect sense. Sharkscope doesn't track reentries so people who are reentry heavy will both show high ITM%, low early finish % and extremely high ROIs. That does complicate cases like these. What you need is to talk to other regs who have sample on these players, put together your databases so you have a huge sample and work with someone who can do forensics on the statistics.
Thrash370 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2017, 12:43 PM   #17
xBIGx
centurion
 
xBIGx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 136
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianok View Post
Look at the SS of the 5 CZ players.

https://gyazo.com/0c32bf8b1ebe3d6c8c7a934be996a5df

MaDfRiStaiLER (madfreestyler)

yrnitemare1 on Twitch has a lot of hands with this guy.. could probably ask him.

xBIGx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2017, 10:42 AM   #18
DaddyDuck
newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 39
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Hmm, you guys ever feel like you are banging your head against a brick wall? Adrianok you are smart, you've gathered evidence, you see a problem and are trying to do something about it. Truly though what do you think the outcome of your efforts will be? How many times has a similar thread been started? The problem isn't the individual bots, it is the environment that allows them to thrive. True change for any corporation comes when they are losing revenue. If players stop playing, the site will lose revenue, and a bot solution will appear, bots will go away, and players can play again. The problem is as long as players chose to play in a corrupted environment, the corporation sees no real incentive to address the problem.
DaddyDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2017, 01:59 PM   #19
GRGNT
stranger
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 10
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

I sent many reports for bots in cash games, but answer from support was "its not a bot". The amount of evidence was really enormous.
GRGNT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2017, 03:56 AM   #20
silkhandlez
grinder
 
silkhandlez's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Maine
Posts: 413
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

I dunno about botting, but I do know that there is a very similar name to "briallin" something like i(bri-all)in. The second name is butchered as hell, but have seen both screen names playing at the same time before and was suspicious they were the same person.. The day where I thought this--- was a long time ago, so my lack of specifics do not really make an arguable case.. I know both accounts were from russia when I checked that day, not sure if both same city.. Sorry I can't remember exact name, does anyone know the exact name of the screen name I am talking about?

Cliffs
I am suspicious of a player playing on two wpn skins at the same time

no real facts, but worth checking out imo.
silkhandlez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2017, 12:25 PM   #21
Winning_TD
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,009
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRGNT View Post
I sent many reports for bots in cash games, but answer from support was "its not a bot". The amount of evidence was really enormous.
You have to define evidence a little more?

When players suspect and gather info doesnt mean that they are correct. I have bot checked many names i have been given and i havent found one bot myself.
Winning_TD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2017, 12:44 PM   #22
DaddyDuck
newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 39
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

I'm just curious and possibly you can't divulge your methods. But from ACR's side, how do you identify a bot?
DaddyDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2017, 12:52 PM   #23
Winning_TD
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,009
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

I can show you if you are playing right now?
Winning_TD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2017, 01:35 PM   #24
silkhandlez
grinder
 
silkhandlez's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Maine
Posts: 413
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyDuck View Post
I'm just curious and possibly you can't divulge your methods. But from ACR's side, how do you identify a bot?
Pretty sure a little box pops up on your screen that says something like "choose the correct hand".. I was playing a lot of tables, but something weird popped up on my screen on monday. and I just clicked it until it was gone. Figured it was a bot check.
silkhandlez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2017, 01:52 PM   #25
aqb
grinder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 525
Re: Bots at the WPN network tables (MTT)

Quote:
Originally Posted by silkhandlez View Post
Pretty sure a little box pops up on your screen that says something like "choose the correct hand".. I was playing a lot of tables, but something weird popped up on my screen on monday. and I just clicked it until it was gone. Figured it was a bot check.
If this is the only method to screen bots, then it would be easy for a programmer to circumvent this by adding a feature to the bots similar to recognizing captcha.
aqb is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online