trying to stay as far away from this thread as possible but it is worth stating that the bots were sharing hole card info. knowing when someone can never have nut flush doesnt mean the technology is there to make a true top 10 winner (ok well maybe in heads up).

should end with footnote bots are bad for everyone

I wasn't aware of the fact that they shared hole cards. Very relevant to their worthiness, thanks for the info.

They never, never, never never never answer

That was a theory some people had but in the end there was no proof of hole card sharing

cliffs:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1005

Dude, it's very transparent that you have some sort of vested interest with WPN or bots or both. Your whole stance on this issue is coming from another planet, "because any player that wants to play on this site should be concerned about this issue and shouting it from the rooftops". This nonsense you keep spewing about wanting to play with bots is just ridiculous and you trying to downplay the issue. No player wants to play in a room full of bots. Yeah you can beat 1, but do you really think you can beat a room of them, 3 rooms of them, 8 rooms of them?

And is that a joke putting down the auto recall example? You can't be so dense to not see my point. Yes innocent people get blamed all the time for issues (such as car collisions which ultimately caused damage or loss of life) only to later find that the auto manufacturer released X amount of vehicles to the market with a defect. I can also use insurance companies as an example. They have been found to systematically underpay Providers at incorrect reimbursement rates (ie BCBS of IL, don't take my word for it Google it). Do you think that issue was resolved by individual providers contacting the insurance companies directly? Unfortunately No, they had to take their stories to open forums and ban together to file with State's Attorney's offices and fight together to get the issues resolved.

This mindset of "let me keep playing on the site" when there are active players stealing from my bonus, or significantly cutting into my BB/100 is desperate. If we want the problem resolved we have to be strong in our convictions to get it resolved. Me personally I won't play on the site until the security issue gets resolved.

Last year I reported 2 players, because I thought they were bots. One week later this players has been removed and I have never seen them again, so at this point wpn has done a good job. But the problem is, one of this player was an older account, who has played hundreds of thousands hands and was many weeks in the top 10 of the beast promo (so its impossible that he could be below the radar). The point is, why has wpn it not discovered earlier? I joined wpn and in the first week I found this player suspicious. Since then I have not the biggest trust to the automatic wpn-bot-detection anymore.

A few weeks later I found out more and more bots. For example there are x bots who has won a beast-$55-tournament-ticket. Then they are sitting for example on the button and the sb and bb are offline and on sitout (because they dont play the tournament, they are just here, because they have won the ticket too and were automatically registered for it). And then the bot-player (btn) fake-think x seconds and then he openfold his hand (in a unraised pot, were he just can steal the money...) and he do this again and again and again. No human do such a things. And then I just stopped playing on wpn. If they are not capable to detect such bad bots, then all hopes of fair games are lost.

@salova
Great work, thanks

One question, you have said you have played 3 millions of hands, right? How is your ev? Are you running over or under ev? Why do I ask this? So far I have not seen one single samplesize-chart from a human wpn-player who is running over ev. I think this could be a sideeffect of the many bots too, because they share their holecards and so the can realize a better ev and for the human player it looks like they are running very unlucky, but its no unluck, the bots have just more and better informations...).

Edit: And there are other points too, where bots can create an edge. For example, 2 bots works together, one is sitting in the button, the other is sitting in the sb. If the pot is unopened and it cames to the button, then the button can openraise a much bigger range, the sb just fold the hand and with this the btn can generate in position a much higher ev (and the bigblind just lose money to this and can nothing do against). So bots are a real danger and its not so easy like the wpn-representative think, like just bet more and exploit that they are calling underpairs...the sad true is, good bots are better as 95% of the human players and with the new gto-Solver-stuffs (they can save 1000s of gto-solutions...) and with holecard-sharing and collusion-play, I think they are better as 99% of the humans.

ROFL - Confirmed bot

I really don't think you get my stance. I am against, I repeat against bots period. But I also against outing screens names when no one can say 100% an account is a bot or not, that is for WPN to decide and deal with accordingly. If you don't like the way they are dealing with bots then don't play on the network.
Take a look at a few posts above. The guys is claiming they are bots because they never answer in chat, well maybe they simply have their chat turned off. It's the type of paranioa that simply gets out of control and in the process people's reputation gets harmed.

Look at me for example. I have been accused a few times now of supporting bots and thus supporting cheating dispite saying I am against bots but I have a different outlook on the matter. So if I am being accused how many others are being accused that are innocent?

A bot like Libratus is already cleaning out the pros without hand history.. think how bad you would get your ass whooped if the bots were plugged up to hand history data. The only chance you have with a bot is pretty much hit and run. Humans just don't have the energy to out last a bot.

I did not realize the existence of Russian bots in WPN cash and SNGs was even a disputed thing at this point.

is it chopsy2 account of WPN director?

No but if they want to hire me I will listen to their offer.

Wow TD you've been a friend for years and you probably are annoyed at me because I criticized something you did in private with harsh words months ago and you haven't talked to me since, but WTF are you doing here?

You're better off not talking than making WPN look this unprofessional. Seriously. I can't even understand how frustrated you must be to revert to acting this way, but you're making WPN look awful. Just stop posting.

I mean FFS for years I recommended WPN to people and now I see one of their employees on a forum basically saying "well bots suck so just beat them."

Makes me feel like I shouldn't have given those endorsements. And based on this thread it's going to be a lot harder moving forth to do so, this is so beyond unprofessional I can't even understand what made you think this was the right way to respond.

Somebody who see this thread, make a new 2+2 account and then post a screenshot showing a text written by himself (and were the screenshot is probably make after the first post in this thread) is not realy an evidence.

I dont know Airon Vega and I dont know if he is bot/cyborg or not, but I just ask myself, would a human who has done nothing wrong, do this? For me it looks suspicious and its additional no answer, he ask in the chat a simple question and almost every bot can do such things. A kind of evidence could be an older screenshot (older as this thread) and were we can see a real chat, where the player shows that he has understand the question and answer direct to this.

If I would be wpn I would make a detailed bot-check with this player. I would take the Hand-Number and check if the player has use the chat before this date too. If not, then its much more suspicious and then I would make a very detailed check over all hands he have played in past, his behaviour, durations of sessions and breaks and even such thinks like mouse-movements and timing reactions.

oops ok, just read AironVega's first post here and I think I have understood his 2nd post wrong (I just find out, he wasnt accused to be a bot...) so I take back what I posted before about him.

The answer is so simple. All of us are russian speaking players, from Russia,Belarus or Ukraine. We are known in Russian forums - we can post links on themes about us.

The main idea is that we posted such theme on our site last summer and the Support service made some check. After that many of players that look like bots dissapeared . We just want to gather more people to have more influency and to change the bot situation on better.

I'm really surprised by the comments of the WPN`s representative. It would be a good idea to say " There are not enough proofs for me, but I will recend these nicks for checking".

I`m not asking to ban these nicks at once, but there isn`t only me, who have suspicion about them.
They rarely take part in the race, I mean they don't compete on big amounts like 1k or 2.5k prizes . And I'm sure the live man would like to take part in them at least once.
I think that they use the program, which advice them the right act in this same moment they are playing. These programs are prohibited. I think it`s the only one explanation why their statistic is so similar.

for exemple:
ksowach
popets
At the top is 3 players, surely human. These players are really skilled and they have similar preflop statistic. But you can compare and see that their postflop statistic vary a lot from these player to that one I post lower under them.

another example:
Two of them (helpurself911 и LADAsedan15) are playing different limits (nl50 and nl100) from one town and the difference in date of registration is about 8 days.These players have almost similar statistics and have never played on the one same table( I mean, vs each other).They have been playing for a long time.As the traffic on WPN isn't so huge, many player mix the limits(playing two of them as well), so I'm curious they haven't ever cross. Lower you can see screenshots with some proof of my suspicion.

Small differences in the stats of 7 lower players is also because they play different limits.
nickname are not visible
helpurself911--21 dec krasnoyarsk 100нл
Homopokerus -- 17 nov moskva
caballeroXXX --- 12 okt Waterdown can
Ladasedan15 --29 dec krasnoyarsk 50нл
unicellular -- 23 dec -- St-P 100нл
dirtydog98 --26 okt novosibirsk --50-100нл
Full5speed (i know that it's top player)

Isn't Full5speed the one that won the WSOP Package for clicking on the flying buck?

yes its true
all this bots( or players with advisors) clicking on flying buck
thats why wpn bot tests haven't real effect

About the fact that the bots do not respond in the chat - do you believe in the coincidence that a huge group of players are playing without chat or never see a personal appeal in the chat, and also has very similar statistics preflop and postflop?

Nothing new. Running rampant as usual. Smh

Pretty serious stuff, but this is nothing new for online players, and this is hard for ACR to deal with properly, so they are not to fully blame. Its just the evolution of online poker. Online poker started out in 2003, planet poker? 14 years later you should expect it to have advanced quite a bit.

Its important to be aware that if you are playing microstakes - 1/2 NL or PLO. Chance you are going up against bots in a 100k hand sample is pretty much 100%. If you are a good enough player to beat bots and have a nice winrate then who cares keep putting the volume in. But if you are thinking about depositing and trying out poker, it just doesn't make sense, the upside is very small and the chance you get the short end of the stick is very high. But if you are okay with potentially being cheated or playing against computers and losing your money then by all means, but just understand what you are getting yourself into. online poker in 2017 is scary stuff, and I am willing to bet this americas card room wont be around in 2022 (5 years).


Poker is becoming more computer/program oriented everyday and there are plenty of honest players who are at a disadvantage and have no chance to make any kind of return with some of the private software/bots/etc that you will be 100% going up against. whether its on acr or another site the site operators will be hard pressed to find a solution to this problem.

^^^ This.

What makes it worse is there is a WPN rep in this thread saying the exact opposite. It is shocking that a WPN rep is in here saying play against the bots and win money. And that one poster saying the same thing is silly or a WPN shill.

My take on things is very clear. The bots are winning. The bots are withdrawaling those winnings. The bots are net withdrawalers. And the withdrawals they are making are amounting to millions. Imagine how much stronger the poker economy would be if cheaters hadn't stolen millions. And I don't think WPN can withstand these stolen millions in withdrawals. I think it is even worse because techinically WPN is a bunch of small skins. These small skins can't financially handle these stolen losses or not at least without constantly coming up with new gimmick games that turn the players poker edge to 0%.

This last week really nailed it to me just how small WPN is in size. I decided to Beast it up and I finished in the top 100 in The Beast and got $250. I am a no one, playing no one stakes and I finished in the top 100 players on all of WPN cash games in terms of rake. Granted there are also tournament players, but if a no one like me is in the top 100 Beast players, then trust me WPN is small. I got my $250 in Beast money deposited into my account Saturday morning. I was motivated to get $250 again and maybe an outside shot at Beast $1,000 this week. After my play on Saturday I was in the top 20 and I am a no one player playing no one stakes, WPN is small. And you could say that sure some people don't play on the weekend, but I am writing this early Thursday morning and I am still in the top 50 players on the Beast list. If a player like me is in the top 50 cash game rakers on WPN, then WPN is tiny is size. And obviously the individual skins are even smaller.

There is no way on earth that a small site like WPN can afford to have bots stealing and withdrawaling millions or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. And having a WPN rep is here saying there is no bot problem, and if there are bots just play them and win, is just an invitation for more bot owners to move there bots to WPN. The bot forums describe poker sites by the toughness on catching and banning bot. The poker sites that don't do anything are called bot-friendly. Winning_TD's comments in this thread are bot-friendly. It is absolutely shocking.

^^ without going into too much info

I dont condone bots, the play against them was sarcasm

My point is just because someone thinks these xx players are bots, it doesnt mean they are bots

That's fine and all but wouldn't a better approach to this whole 5 pages of madness be to simply acknowledge your customers request and try to do something about it right or wrong, then report your findings to put an end to the suspicion?