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Old 06-28-2017, 04:29 PM   #51
xBIGx
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Now I can see why bots some bots sellers wanted $50k+ back in the Ultimate Bet days.
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:31 PM   #52
wolfbook
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Re: Bots nl50-200

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Originally Posted by Winning_TD View Post
#29 - Ignored you should of gone 80/20

I dont think you quite realise the job i do here. It started very professional but the ridiculous claims have led me become this person. I help the people that are rational and actually have good reason to complain about something.

You do know there are players out there that dont even know how to play poker but they know roughly what decisions are correct. Doesnt make them a bot.

However as much as i troll here i do also look into names and i do check them myself at times. I do also send on to security.

Also i am sure i have come up against bots on a number of times on numerous sites. Pretty sure taking money from them was easier than any good player. Just saying

I call Bull Crap on this being a response to the stats provided in Post #29. Not a single statistical word from you. DOH.

On purpose I took a case study from the past AND from a different site. The Pokerstars PLO bot ring thread may be the greatest thread of all time on 2+2.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...-them-1537778/

Schwein and others in the Pokerstars PLO bot case did show through math that with enough hands it does become impossible for stats to be too close without cheating involved. That thread might be the most important thread ever on 2+2. Winning_TD and Nick look foolish in this thread saying stats don't prove anything. And also in the PS PLO thread at least one person saying stats don't prove anything ended up being one of the accounts that eventually got banned as a bot, so he was in thread trying to de-rail that thread. Similarly at least one person in this thread has made strange comments that stats don't prove anything. Hmmm.

Anyone that wishes to get massively informed on what stats can prove should key in on Schwein's posts/graphs in that thread with regards to "the distance between following account pairs in form of a graph". Schwein brought the truth and took down a $1.5 million bot ring (along with the help of Grethe and Oink in particular.)

Last edited by wolfbook; 06-28-2017 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:32 PM   #53
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Re: Bots nl50-200

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Originally Posted by nick619 View Post
You're far too nice replying to this clown, Winning_TD. I guess being a moderator wouldn't be for me. lol
Sorry nick, but u are not competent in this matter(bots and their harm for human). Plz stop trash talking.
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:34 PM   #54
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Re: Bots nl50-200

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Originally Posted by Winning_TD View Post
However as much as i troll here i do also look into names and i do check them myself at times. I do also send on to security.

Also i am sure i have come up against bots on a number of times on numerous sites. Pretty sure taking money from them was easier than any good player. Just saying
can u confirm, that all this players from posts of salova - HUMANS ?
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:47 PM   #55
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Re: Bots nl50-200

I can or cannot confirm anything.

They have to be online first of all to recieve the bot test.

Also, i wont be sharing info and i most likely wont be doing anything myself on the matter

If they are bots, chase them if they calling down with bottom pair.. FREE MONEY
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:01 PM   #56
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Three posts in the thread by a WPN rep and all three posts overtly condone the use of bots on WPN with a response that says, "play them and win."

All historical evidence of bot rings in 2+2 thread after 2+2 thread has the bots winning tens of millions.

I just went to the WPN web page and under the security tab it says this, "See something suspicious? Report it. At Winning Poker Network, integrity of the game is priority one. Our 24/7 security team works tirelessly to make sure everyone plays fair. We also count on the support of our community to keep things honest. If you notice something suspicious, we encourage you to report it here." They have a drop down menu for collusion, one for game misconduct and one for bot report. The reps posts are out of line with WPN's mission statement on security.

This WPN rep is disturbing to the point of being too stupid to know how stupid he is.

Last edited by wolfbook; 06-28-2017 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:15 PM   #57
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Re: Bots nl50-200

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Originally Posted by GRGNT View Post
Sorry nick, but u are not competent in this matter(bots and their harm for human). Plz stop trash talking.
You're right about me not knowing much about bots. I have never used them and never will. My bad. Apparently you have experience in using them. Please teach us, wise one.
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:16 PM   #58
Winning_TD
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Re: Bots nl50-200

I am a rep out my own choice and that is why i decide to help or not help.

Just because someone says i play the same as you pre flop and we live close doesnt make us bots.

The problem here is.. One person says they are bots the whole world says they are bots. I am not saying its right im just saying it doesnt make it true.

This is why i dont respond on these threads because it just tilts me that it has to be true when its not always the case. (proven fact)
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:26 PM   #59
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Re: Bots nl50-200

There is no question about the same preflop stats, this is just something visible that I can give to you.

These players are full of controversial hands many times (as a game with defined timings (always) or strange play of the hand) make sure that they play unfairly.
Only they all had the same postflop, I know a huge number of Russian players, but none with exactly the same postflop sizing(stats)
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:31 PM   #60
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Re: Bots nl50-200

I quickly put together a list of all of the accused (in addition to two more I've spotted on my own) at mainly the 25nl limits and some 50nl, and here are the results. I dashed out some stats that had less than a handful of sample sizes and did my best to put in parenthesis the ones with very limited sizes as well.

Obviously sample size will be an issue as some of the stats reported would take some time to converge (4b, F24b, River samples [cb, xr]). The ones we can look at with some significance would be VPIP, PFR, 3b, F23b, CO/BTN/SB steal, WTSD/W$SD/WWSF on those with more significant samples, and the ones most telling to me are Flop/Turn CB-XR, and postflop agg%.



This is my opinion of the suspected based on these stats at first glance.

Inconclusive due to sample size: 6, 9, 11

Does not share same overall trends, probably not bots
(at least from same origin/programmer): 12, 16

Worth looking more into: 10, 15

Probable bots: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 13, 14 -- These are the ones with 5k+ hand samples and share the nearly identical VPIP, PFR, 3b and the same trends for CB stats, F2CBs, agg%)

To be honest I'm not sure how concrete the evidence is, but the trends are definitely alarming. I had 4 of these guys marked as "does not understand ranges!" But they're still either BE or slightly winning players.

If any of you more savvy-stats guys spot any patterns or mistakes feel free to discuss in a civil manner. Also if any WPN staff wants the excel sheet with names revealed I'll be happy to provide.
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:52 PM   #61
wolfbook
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Re: Bots nl50-200

aqb (or anyone for that matter), one of the 2+2 posters that gladly looks at bot data is

Grethe

send him a PM and link post #60.
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Old 06-28-2017, 06:29 PM   #62
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Thanks for this AQB.
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Old 06-28-2017, 07:49 PM   #63
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Re: Bots nl50-200

I only have a small sample on MrCrabs333 at 50 NL, but it is eerily similar to what you all posted for "its" VPIP/PFR.

Must be fun playing against these clones.



Yuliya21 I have at 27/18 as well.

Since I'm showing everyone's stats. I'll say my own 50 NL stats: Currently at 24/20 for about 2k hand sample.
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Old 06-28-2017, 10:08 PM   #64
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Amazing position of the representatiove WPN. Do you simply think delusion of complaints from dozens regular players? At NL25-50 limits picture is horrific, a few dozen players play with statistics of top-lvl regulars of zoom500pokerstars, like clones, doing sometimes stupid actions. They dont write in the chat, always put the big blind, no signs of a real player. Most of them from my country(Russia). I dont know anyone in the reallife. At NL100-200 picture is not so dramatic but similar. The security service of WPN, if you exist, please pay some attention to this!

Last edited by AironVega; 06-28-2017 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 06-28-2017, 10:31 PM   #65
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfbook View Post
Wholly crap did you even read what I wrote? I said said something different of what you are typing (except to say Winning_TD made a dumb ass post.) I did not say bots are being used for RB. Bots are being used to cheat. Because cheaters gonna cheat. And the site needs to be played human versus human. Human versus chess bots is not working out so well for humans (even Grandmasters.) Human versus backgammon bots not working out so well for humans.

Human Pokerstars PLO 100 players versus bots didn't work out so well to the tune of bots winning over $1.5 million. Lets try this again...

Human or not is the point.

Post #29 of this thread shows multiple stats on players. You reach a point of tens of thousands of hands where if the difference between the stats is so small it gets to the point it isn't two different humans who amazingly have the same stats, but instead it is the same bot being used by one or more players.

My over/under on a WPN rep responding to post #29 is now 15/85.
My how quickly we forget. In post #40 you clearly state bots can be losers pre rb/beast and winners post rb/beast. So since bots are clearly exploitable that means they are losers pre rb/beast so the only reason one would use a bot is to turn a profit post rb/beast. So let's see you produce such a bot. Give a list of screen names you think are bots along with stats to show why you think they are bots and let's see where they finish on next weeks leaderboard.

Again I am only going on words you wrote so maybe it's time to back up your claims.
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:34 PM   #66
wolfbook
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Re: Bots nl50-200

So sad you are like little dog with a little bone. That one and only one post was talking in general not specific to Winning_TD first dumb ass post (TD made more dumb ass posts afterward, even going so far as to go against WPN's web page stated security mission statement about a fair game being priority one.) Either get on page with everyone else here talking about non-human cheaters or continue chewing on your little bone. I'm through with you.
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:43 PM   #67
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfbook View Post
So sad you are like little dog with a little bone. That one and only one post was talking in general not specific to Winning_TD first dumb ass post (TD made more dumb ass posts afterward, even going so far as to go against WPN's stated security mission statement about a fair game being priority one.) Either get on page with everyone else here with everyone else talking about non-human players or continue chewing on your little bone. I'm through with you.
I will get on board when someone can give 100% proof that these players are bots and even then I won't even worry about it. I will put my trust in WPN that any bots will be caught and carry on with my life.

By the way, your response to my last post is a typical reply of someone who is talking out of his ass. You clearly can't say for 100% who is and isn't a bot so shut up. Or you can keep living in the land of paranoia whatever you want.
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Old 06-29-2017, 01:39 PM   #68
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopsy2 View Post
I will get on board when someone can give 100% proof that these players are bots and even then I won't even worry about it. I will put my trust in WPN that any bots will be caught and carry on with my life.

By the way, your response to my last post is a typical reply of someone who is talking out of his ass. You clearly can't say for 100% who is and isn't a bot so shut up. Or you can keep living in the land of paranoia whatever you want.
I really don't understand the position some of you guys are taking on this topic... unless maybe you have a vested interest in bots.. then it makes sense.

Regardless of if wolfbook is being likable, if the bots win, or if the bots lose, having bots on your site is awful for the game for "real players". If I read correctly from another thread, WPN does have some sort of "Captcha" mechanism that they can use. Please start using it... crank up the volume on everybody at random times, rinse, recycle, repeat.... boom problem solved. Periodically change it up. Players will at times get annoyed but not so much annoyed when their Rake money is being donated to the bot population.
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Old 06-29-2017, 01:53 PM   #69
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Re: Bots nl50-200

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Originally Posted by DaddyDuck View Post
I really don't understand the position some of you guys are taking on this topic... unless maybe you have a vested interest in bots.. then it makes sense.

Regardless of if wolfbook is being likable, if the bots win, or if the bots lose, having bots on your site is awful for the game for "real players". If I read correctly from another thread, WPN does have some sort of "Captcha" mechanism that they can use. Please start using it... crank up the volume on everybody at random times, rinse, recycle, repeat.... boom problem solved. Periodically change it up. Players will at times get annoyed but not so much annoyed when their Rake money is being donated to the bot population.
I think the position that I am taking and some others that is being missed is that we are not pro bot or against WPN taking appropriate measures but that we don't want players screen names being outed by amature bot detectives. It really should be a simple process, report any suspect accounts to WPN and only WPN and leave names out of public forums. In my opinion the only thing worse than cheating is accusing someone of cheating when they haven't. Leave it to the security team to care of things and if you don't feel safe then simply don't play on the site.
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Old 06-29-2017, 01:56 PM   #70
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Re: Bots nl50-200

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Originally Posted by xBIGx View Post
This could be cause they're playing on another skin. If we're on ACR you won't be able to see Betcoin player locations. Pretty much Betcoin skin is anonymous.

FYI, since this post is about cash games, these players can automatically be ruled out as being BetCoin players. BetCoin is part of the Winning Tournament Network, not the Winning Poker Network. As such, BetCoin players do not have access to WPN's cash games.

--
Kahn
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Old 06-29-2017, 02:07 PM   #71
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winning_TD View Post
I hope i have read these hand histories correct.

You suspect these players are bots but they are giving money away?

Please correct me if im wrong here
as i see in my holdem manager the bots listed by salova have 1-3bb/100 winrate, what it means for people who plays against them? yes, it means that most people losing their money when plays vs bots....
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Old 06-29-2017, 03:46 PM   #72
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopsy2 View Post
I think the position that I am taking and some others that is being missed is that we are not pro bot or against WPN taking appropriate measures but that we don't want players screen names being outed by amature bot detectives. It really should be a simple process, report any suspect accounts to WPN and only WPN and leave names out of public forums. In my opinion the only thing worse than cheating is accusing someone of cheating when they haven't. Leave it to the security team to care of things and if you don't feel safe then simply don't play on the site.
I can understand the concern with false accusations. Creating witch hunts will lead to people being wrongfully drowned and burned. The problem at hand though is that you cannot just trust the Poker site on their own to just deal with these types of issues. This is the same with real world issues (i.e. auto recalls?). It has been seen time and time again that in order to make major problems, cons, scams go away was by presenting the information to the public so that people could come out with their own stories or so that they just have knowledge to better protect themselves. By bringing the information to the public, it also further encourages the company in question to take steps to address the issue.
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Old 06-29-2017, 04:45 PM   #73
chopsy2
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Re: Bots nl50-200

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Originally Posted by DaddyDuck View Post
I can understand the concern with false accusations. Creating witch hunts will lead to people being wrongfully drowned and burned. The problem at hand though is that you cannot just trust the Poker site on their own to just deal with these types of issues. This is the same with real world issues (i.e. auto recalls?). It has been seen time and time again that in order to make major problems, cons, scams go away was by presenting the information to the public so that people could come out with their own stories or so that they just have knowledge to better protect themselves. By bringing the information to the public, it also further encourages the company in question to take steps to address the issue.
The auto recall example is not exactly the same thing as there would have been no innocent bystanders wrongly accused in that situation. And really again all I am saying is players can work with the network without having to out screen names. There can even be discussions publicly about any bot issues without having to bring people's screen names up. Even though we are behind computer screens doesn't mean a persons reputation can't be harmed if wrongly accused.
It's like the old saying that it's better for ten guilty men to go free than for one innocent man to go to jail.
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Old 06-29-2017, 06:34 PM   #74
wolfbook
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Re: Bots nl50-200

Quote:
Originally Posted by winner111 View Post
as i see in my holdem manager the bots listed by salova have 1-3bb/100 winrate, what it means for people who plays against them? yes, it means that most people losing their money when plays vs bots....
^ This.

Winning_TD's posts in this thread are stupid, irresponsible, don't represent the position of WPN found on their own web page about security and are just wrong. Had made at least three posts in this thread that directly or indirectly implied that human players will beat bots when the opposite is true.

Last edited by wolfbook; 06-29-2017 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 06-29-2017, 06:35 PM   #75
wolfbook
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Re: Bots nl50-200

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Originally Posted by Winning_TD View Post
I can or cannot confirm anything.

They have to be online first of all to recieve the bot test.

Also, i wont be sharing info and i most likely wont be doing anything myself on the matter

If they are bots, chase them if they calling down with bottom pair.. FREE MONEY
Hmmmm. See above post. This is only one of a least three posts in this thread of Winning_TD's crap about who is going to be on the long term positive end of humans versus bots. How does he still have a position representing WPN?
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