another idea would be to have something that is like a hybrid between challenge and live match. there would be a max loss/buy in and the winner would win the difference in money between the two players, but neither would see the other person playing or know if they were ahead or behind. then even if someone was free rolling in reality, they wouldn't really know that, so every play would carry risk and there wouldn't be this huge distortion of regular play.

something like this would have the benefit of not having to be played at the same time, just like challenges, but also it would have the drawback of not being interactive. i'm sure there are probably a lot of people that like being able to watch their opponents play and chat, etc.

yea i am one of those people who like interacting.

alot of the edge in beating live matches is being able to see your opponent and adjust in real time.


also ronmexico, i will never feel its freerolling due to the fact its 30 hands minimum, the score at hand 15 means nothing. but the score at the end of hand 30 can be set in stone.

other than cushion play, there is no adjusting to opponents in live matches. whatever play is most +Cev vs. the bots is the most +ev play vs. any opponent when both players have full stacks in play.

If your playing an opponent who is super aggressive at a table full of tight bots, then i'd say its best to adjust to your opponent rather than sit there and lose your whole buyin.

then you'd be wrong. your human opponent has no effect on the ev of any of your plays vs. your bot opponents. your win/loss of each hand is determined by the difference in value between you and your opponent, so whatever play has the highest expected value for you vs. your bot opponents will always have the highest expected value for you vs. your human opponent no matter what they do.

Suggestion: site needs waaay more fish. I'm getting sick of being prison raped by dci over and over again. I think about 75% of players over the $7.50 level are probably 2p2ers. More ad spots targeted at a wider audience would be a good idea IMO.

when your opponent is crushing you in the "pots won without showdown" category, your expected value vs bots is no longer the main focus.

its not something that's even debatable. every play has an expectation and in non-cushion live play your opponent's plays don't have any effect on that expectation. if you can choose between a play than has an expectation of +$1 or one that has an expectation of +$2, picking the one that has an expectation of +$2 will yield on average $1 more than the play with a +$1 expectation no matter what your opponent's score is. if you are getting crushed, then it might be an indicator that you might not be making the most +ev plays in the first place, but the most +ev play vs. your bot opponents is still the most +ev play nomatter what and that play is the same vs. any opponent.

edit: in challenges this changes because of the winner take all structure. in challenges one player can beat another 9/10 matches despite having a lower total score if their point distribution matches up favorably enough for them. in this case, then opponent play largely effects ev. that's not the case in a structure where you get paid the exact difference in score though.

False, one guy who I play alot crushes me in the "pots won without showdown" yet I don't change my play against him since he is over aggressive in bad spots all the time.

+EV play vs the bots is the only way to play it.

some of the regs are fish, I never played DCI so I can't speak about him.

I like this idea. Maybe as a third option. Maybe as a limited test run to see if people would play it.

WRT the cushion and free-rolling, I agree with the folks who believe it is a free-roll and needs to be addressed somehow. I don't think that can be done by ending the match prior to reaching the minimum hand requirement but there has to be some other way to fairly address it. As others have mentioned, increasing the buy-in may be an option.

Interesting idea (i.e., the hybrid)... We'll give it some thought.

It's best to not think of it as a cash game, but as a heads up tourney with limited hands.

then he is not crushing you

Not sure if this has been addressed but on the tables I cant really see the betting amounts from the bots, because they blend in with the table to an extent. I know I can see it in my betting meter thing but I like seeing the amount on the table as well.

This is true... I guess I would just like to see more new players/better traffic on the site overall though.

well get out there and get promoting

exactly my point, you said you would change up for someone that uses that style when in fact how he plays shouldn't impact you at all.

yep; I've had that debate with many people.

I maintain that your opponent's strategy should not impact your strategy (other than end game situations with a cushion or close to a cushion).

But not everyone agrees w/ me

when i said crushing in the pots won without showdown category i was also meaning that in a sense of he wins overall. Not- winning pots without showdown and still loses the match.


one set style will work for one set of people and their styles, maybe even 2 or three.

the only way you can have a chance at beating everybody is by learning to adapt and adjust your play in all aspects (to the bots and to your opponent)


thats just my opinion from my own personal experiences.

Can you please provide an example of adapting to your opponent in a non-endgame situation?

i really dont feel like data-mining to be honest.


i will say its easier to adapt when you have a decent amount of history with a player and an understanding of their tendencies in certain spots.


once i get the time and get back on skillbet i will make a video.

I didn't ask you to data mine, just make up a hypothetical example where it would be theoretically clear that you should be adapting to your opponent in non-endgame scenarios.

i rather just make a video or whatever or ill save a hand in the future.

We should play for 300 and you can show them how to properly beat a donk.