A ton of nightblue's notes seem suspect, like

"Sustain Junglers (Fiddle/Warwick/Pantheon/Elise): Start first buff to second buff camp afterwards"
Why would you start at a buff when you gain nothing from smiting it? Starting frog speeds up your clear. Red/blue are much less valuable now overall imo, only give 100 XP, and most junglers aren't going to be in a position where they can gank on their 1st clear due to low health.

Also, pantheon and elise are sustain?? I almost feel like he meant go buff to buff on ganking junglers that are going to gank at lvl 2, but then why are fiddle and ww included? weird

"Non-sustain/low sustain junglers(Rengar,Kha'zix,Wukong,Udyr): First camp to first buff to second camp, back and buy jungle item, then second buff"

That seems exploitable backing so early but what do i know.

some people just don't adjust well to big jungle changes, eg piece of sheets was D1 in S4, the S5 changes meant rushing wraith on ap junglers was a must, but for a whole ****ing season he just rushed zhonya, refused to adapt and is mid plat right now.

Just because he's high elo doesn't mean he will be one of the fastest to adapt or innovate this season.

the frog start stuff for eg, seems pretty cool though.

Elise can hide behind spiderlings and take no dmg and pantheon passive absorbs a lot of dmg as well.

Ok so I tried the frog start, and solo w/ machete I full cleared and hit 4 @ 4:02.

w/ amp tome its around 3:40

w/ amp tome and full clear > back buy rangers > 2nd clear> buy codex > solo dragon ( don't even need a health pot compared to old dragon - you just stay full ).

Feels so much better starting and smiting frog on both clears, and also gets the early dragon buffs going fast. ( I did this sort of route old jungle, and early dragons were good for timer control+gold ).

You end up finishing dragon around 7min, which is great because most people are backing and going for their 2nd buff cycle, so it works out as a naturally good time to take dragons without being busted.

3rd dragon stack imo is where it starts getting brutal, that extra movespeed is a killer, especially for junglers - getting a free 5% is so huge.

What runes are you running? Assuming 21/0/9 masteries?

Ya imo you can throw out all of nightblues notes, because he wasnt starting golems/frog.

Standard 21/0/9 and mpen reds, armor yellows, ap blues and quints.

Blocking damage is not sustain though, thats like saying mumu has sustain because his E blocks a lot of damage

I'm wondering if extreme nunu invades would work from red side.

Eg Consume+Smite frog immediately, assuming enemy jungler starts frog.

You then go straight to raptors, take it, then take golem.

Enemy jungler = ****ed.

Just tried in a custom, seems like it'd work extremely well.

nunu is the only one that works extremely well with the counter jungling item cuz of consume. i think warwick and nunu are god tier right now with xin, yi and udyr slightly behind. of course fiddle is also good no matter what.

I wouldn't even bother with the counter jungle item, devourer op.
Not sure which base version is better, but it sure as fk isnt the counter jungle one.

what are these frogs/raptors?

frog = wight replacement
raptor = wraith replacement

These changes are so bad

What I've noticed is that junglers get a lot less gold, in a normal game where I'm tied with a mid/adc, I'd normally be even or ahead of them , eg we finish and ap mid is like 5/3/10 or something - they might have 12k gold, and I previously would've had 12k ish +-500

Now i'm on 10-11k at best.

All the junglers with fall off points ( lee, j4, panth ) are just gonna fall off so much harder.

Imo you either need to take a utility jungler, or a scaling jungler ( devourer ).

Not quite sure where fid fits in yet, because it's a lot harder to hit that zhonya deathcap now, because of the gold reduction.

Pretty sure nunu is the goat right now though.

dude nunu is a yordle and the thing he rides is definitely NOT a goat

Less gold you say? Well I guess its time to try jungling a champ who can plunder the jungle and get more gold!

well, he does have sustain...

ranger is the only way to go.. except for warwick who goes skirmisher. I guess yi can go skirmisher too but i think yi is better with ranger because its not like yi needs extra damage to kill. Although stalker with noc's ult is pretty ult because u always get the fear off. Noc going stalker into devouer is pretty nice and OP. o yea i think cho also has decent potential.

Yeah I'm actually going to try to make it work, need to work out runes and masteries though. Like his clear is probably super slow so you would want AS runes, but then his Q doesn't hit as hard. Might try something like 9/12/9 with 3 points in armor in defensive. AS runes would let him stack passive on ganks faster too so theres that.

New jungle nerfed khazix pretty hard or anything that uses a lot of mana

every single spirit stone jungler(kha, wu, panth) are garbage now. funny thing is they nerfed Kha W while making jungle changes that were a massive nerf so he's probably bottom 5-10 right now

basically riot took a jungle that was in a good spot, pros are always going to lean on early junglers stop trying to make ****ing WW/Amumu work at the pro level ffs and destroyed it. Though maybe they did nerf everything so hard that only 3 utility junglers are viable instead of Lee/Kha/rotating 3rd

soloQ had a good variety in jungle

fid still strong

udyr really strng

New jungle is garbage, I don`t think anybody besides WW-Players like the changes. Even they will hate it once he is banned every game. I`m always massively underlvled, don`t have any gold and I`m oom or low hp. First Dragon is amazing, movementspeed is good other 2 are garbage and fifth is lol op.

RIP jungle