Na I started doing EW then maxing Q. I realized that EQ was fine when I was playing normals where people are super passive in lane, but once people actually figure out how to harass EW makes way more sense. That is part of my problem, Leveling 1-30 I played a lot of Rumble so I think I've formed some bad habits that come from playing against really weak opponents.

FWIW, the last 15 Jarvan IV games on probuilds.net feature one game where Elementz leveled E first, every other game the player leveled Q first.

In eleven of the fifteen games, the players took Q at level three. Amongst the four players that played him multiple times in that stretch, none of them took anything but Q at level three. Three of the games, Jarvan was in lane, bringing the ratio to 8 of 12 for Q at level 3 in jungle and 11 of 12 for leveling Q first.

Level 27 asking questions here for my own benefit and maybe playing a little devil's advocate:

Those are Pro games. Their lanes will likely be warded properly, not overextended, and people generally have much better awareness as to where the jungler is at all times.

Would this make it more likely that they level Q for faster clear first so they can get 6 faster for more effective ganks?

I would think that taking W would be better in anything less than Plat, but again, I'm level 27 and all I know is from reading here and watching tons of videos.

I take W at 3 because I'm really bad and miss my EQ combos but the W still slows them.

It's definitely possible that at lower levels W is more useful because your allies are less aware of where they should be when you come to gank and this allows them to catch up, and players in general are less aware of where they should be so they push up too far. So it could be an exploitative but not GTO decision. I suspect there are situations that call for both, I was just trying to show that a second rank in Q is what happens in most pro level games, so it certainly can't be that bad. Snamuh called it a "massive mistake".

I'm pretty sure more pros take W third. Your sample size is fairly small and includes multiple occurrences of the same player.

Meteos
Take W at 4, maxes Q

NK INC
Doesn't level W at all, maxes Q

Meteos
Took W at 4, Maxes Q

Sample size is small but clearly Q max appears to be the standard and that W is leveled at 3/4.
There is certainly some personal preference involved but to say that W at lvl 3 is standard is clearly wrong.

Most rage inducing crap ever. Vlad on sale so I decide to give him a shot. Twice I get matched up against ADCs top, twitch and lucian. Nothing about this is learning **** for how to play vlad top.

Here's how to play vlad: when in a teamfight, press R

holy **** dyrus just flipped out live on stream @ reginald

desk slamming, headphone throwing, fbomb slinging intensity

regi is such a prick

reginald is such an enormous douche, just keeps needling and belittling him

See you in relegation free SM

i was so annoyed by what just happened that i, an adult watching a video game stream at 5 PM on a friday, felt compelled to tweet at reginald

cliffs of what happened?

after last night's awful run of games, my first game of today is a 4v5

adc afk entire game

neat

http://www.twitch.tv/tsm_dyrus/b/450280789?t=67m00s

I...wow.

Dyrus seems like the type of person that can take alot of crap but when he snaps he SNAPS. Regi as a 20 something millionaire thinks he's king **** all the time and he really isn't. There is a reason C9 surpassed TSM so easily its that those guys ENJOY BEING AROUND EACH OTHER. Same with Vulcun to a lesser degree. TSM has felt for awhile now like one of those super teams that is thrown together, but the personalities just don't mesh. Regi has to go, retire, and handle the business side of TSM. He's toxic.

Dyrus and Co should move out, get a new midlaner and show their actual potential as a team. Off the top of my head Jintae would be a good pickup as a midlaner or Prolly if Complexity don't make it to LCS

I mean your post just supports everything you quoted. Pros listed under recent games that level W at 3:

I Will Dominate
Elementz
Kiwikid
Wildturtle
Oddone
Nintendudex
Snoopeh
Sycho Sid
Mokatte
I Am Anjo
Nyjacky (does both)
a Lilac
CyanideFI
Lautemortis
Svenskeren
Shiphtur

W/e, I'm done arguing about something so minor anyways. There were significantly more important parts of my initial post that likely got overlooked by this debate.

You realize these are two of the top 3 teams in the NA LCS right? Do all the other teams hate each other even more?

I'm just arguing that its not as clear cut as you say it is in taking w. I never said it was bad - certainly its personal preference and if it works for you, thats totally fine. I max E on jungle j4 too, but I might reconsider that now.

Sorry if I came off harsh, but we're arguing/discussing things so people will try to argue for the opposite viewpoint .

I realize that it is absolutely armchair psychology considering we see these teams like twice a week, but I'd argue that if:

Team A and Team B are equally talented but Team A get along, while Team B hate each other, Team A stands a better chance of succeeding.

Of course to completely counter my own point, teams that win are generally happier and that allows for less friction to arise. C9 basically has faced 0 adversity like TSM has so it will be interesting if their friendship wavers if their results do.

Did Dyrus delete the VOD or something? I click the link but only get taken to his VODs page, not a specific one.

Even without seeing that, I'm pretty surprised TSM has lasted as long as they have. Probably because they really haven't had any real stiff resistance like this season. Even last season where they started off like ****, they turned it around and went on to win the split. Not to mention they won almost every single LAN they competed in during S2 except for MLG and Worlds. I think if TSM gets beaten by CLG (or worse, relegated), Regi is definitely retiring. Hell, he almost did after Worlds last year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv5i8x1T-dg

Sure but they're NOWHERE NEAR equally talented, C9 is loads better. Is my point. As TSM is better than Coast even if Coast does like each other better.

Basically I don't think it really matters hardly at all, and there's much more important factors. Like how talented you are.

Yea this **** is on the top of reddit.

JFC so tilting.