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How do you remember dugi drawing rules?

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01-08-2023 , 02:32 PM

DumbosTrunk

Verified Coach PLO5

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 7,322

Hi all,

I am reading Ken Lo’s book and got to the section on dugi drawing given prior discards. It’s confusing. Is there an easier way to remember all these rules?

It sounds like in general you want the best chance to make the strongest badugi even if it lowers your chance of making any dugi at all. If you’re heads up though I would think you want the best chance of making any dugi as you need to be less nutted heads up than multi-way.

Thanks,
DT

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01-09-2023 , 11:50 PM

maka2184

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,537

Quote:

Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk

DumbosTrunk, assuming LHE Badugi, think depends on snow %, strength of tri, 2 card, etc.

Badugi % seem high enough but equity edge varies per position, strength of hand.

Source: https://www.countingouts.com/masteri...-making-moves/

Might be too basic & not applicable vs IRL experiences

PS: I've only played Badugi IRL with 0 knowledge via home game 3 handed

Last edited by maka2184; 01-09-2023 at 11:55 PM. Reason: DeathDonkey #1 AINEC

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01-10-2023 , 12:14 AM

chillrob

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20,951

If you actually started the hand headsup, then maybe any badugi could be worth showing down, but if several people started drawing, you don't want to get stuck with a bad one. You're going to have reverse implied odds and won't make much more money if you're good.

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01-10-2023 , 02:54 PM

ScotchOnDaRocks

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk

Not sure what you are asking, I read it once many years ago

Ex: You have 2c3s4hJh and discard the Jh

On the 2nd draw you get the 4d so you now have 2c3s4h4d and have your choice of which 4 to toss. But since you've seen the Jh you would keep the 4h because you have one more out to a badugi with Jd. You can still make all of the same strongest badugis with same probability, well maybe slightly less if you specifically catch the Jd on 2nd draw and keep it. Is that what you are saying?

But IIRC too much was made of these "rules" in book

Last edited by ScotchOnDaRocks; 01-10-2023 at 03:01 PM.

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01-10-2023 , 04:50 PM

DumbosTrunk

Verified Coach PLO5

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 7,322

Yeah I meant when you pair up and you've discarded the same suit already. Sounds like going for the nuttiest hand is best in general. Thanks everyone.

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01-10-2023 , 06:16 PM

ScotchOnDaRocks

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Just from a pragamatic sense the difference in playing it out theoretically optimally versus randomly is probably quite small which is why I always found the emphasis on it a little unusual

That said you wouldn’t want to miss not remembering the 9h Th if you start with something like Ac 2h. There’s two dead cards, and they make decent badugis

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01-11-2023 , 05:30 PM

DeathDonkey

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Just never switch suits and you can't screw this up

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01-11-2023 , 05:45 PM

chillrob

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathDonkey

Just never switch suits and you can't screw this up

In the example above, you should switch suits, if I am understanding correctly. You first discard a heart, then you should keep a heart and discard a diamond.

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01-11-2023 , 07:47 PM

DeathDonkey

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

In the example above, you should switch suits, if I am understanding correctly. You first discard a heart, then you should keep a heart and discard a diamond.

No you aren't reading it correctly. We had two hearts pre, so we tossed one. Later we catch a diamond, we should keep the heart. If we switch to diamond we have one less out to make a badugi.

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01-11-2023 , 07:56 PM

#10

chillrob

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathDonkey

No you aren't reading it correctly. We had two hearts pre, so we tossed one. Later we catch a diamond, we should keep the heart. If we switch to diamond we have one less out to make a badugi.

Then I guess I agree with OP that the rules are confusing, because I don't understand at all how "never switch suits" could mean this.

I would remember what to do by thinking "always switch suits (that you're throwing away)".

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01-11-2023 , 08:25 PM

#11

kisada

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,860

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

well, never switch suits (that you're keeping) is pretty much how i read that and have always looked at it, because you we generally look at our hands as very static keeps

like, we've seen 1/13 of clubs, 1/13 of spades, 2/13 hearts, and the D1 shows you 1/13 diamonds with that paired 4.

and since badugi is a game about making 4 different suits, and we're deciding between hearts or diamonds, we're now locked onto hearts and therefore should not switch suits in this case. at least that's how i'd process it in my head, even if we mean the same thing.

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01-11-2023 , 08:31 PM

#12

chillrob

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But in the description of the hand, it is mentioned what card we threw away, not which ones we kept.
So that's what the phrase seems to refer to in my mind.

If someone tells you about a badugi hand, gives you his four cards and asks what he should do on the draw, are you more likely to tell him which cards to throw away, or which cards to keep?

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01-12-2023 , 01:59 PM

#13

RolldUpTrips

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,334

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathDonkey

Just never switch suits and you can't screw this up

Starting hand Ac2h Ts9s
Catch 2s and 2 paint clubs. Of course you should switch the 2h for the 2s

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01-12-2023 , 02:34 PM

#14

DeathDonkey

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Sure but that's obvious. I assumed people wouldn't need help figuring that one out. If they do you should strongly reconsider retirement

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01-16-2023 , 01:39 AM

#15

RolldUpTrips

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,334

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathDonkey

Sure but that's obvious. I assumed people wouldn't need help figuring that one out. If they do you should strongly reconsider retirement

Yes, it is. The only reason I bring it up is that when you say something, it has a special gravitas, and I don't want people to just automatically trust that over their brain when playing a new game. I hope that makes sense.

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01-16-2023 , 12:38 PM

#16

DeathDonkey

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Fair. If they only knew how silly I really am. If I have to choose between two suits where the dead cards are equal I have a ranking in my head of the suits based on how lucky I am at catching them (spades can go **** themselves)

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01-16-2023 , 11:43 PM

#17

RolldUpTrips

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,334

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathDonkey

Well at least I know :-)

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