In 2014 I grinded my way up to $1/$2 and did ok there. I've only played on and off since then, but I recently took out almost my entire roll and now I can't even beat $.10/$.20 anymore. It seems tougher than before. Anyone else finding this? Should I just deposit enough to play $1/$2 so the rake isn't as bad or I am just going to get owned there?

Winrates are almost the same on 0.50/1 and 1/2 compared to 2014. It is a bit lower on 2/4 and 3/6 and on 5/10 already its much lower, if you aren't table selecting really hard. Largest problem is that there aren't that many playing TD anymore, so a lot fewer games run, and people will be forced to move down in stakes, so at some point 1/2 and maybe even 0.50/1 will get tougher. on 0.10/20 i guess people have learned the rules by now, game isnt that '' new '' anymore It's also pretty normal for a person that used to play 1/2 and then move down to 0.10/20 isn't able to take it serious anymore, and will therefore spew around thinking he will crush 0.10/20 because he had a positive winrate on 1/2.

Yes that could be me

what really amuses me, how anyone know what is happening at 0.10/20 AND at 5/10?
It's impossible to table select, since not many games are running. From what i have observed, usually 1 table of 2/4 or 3/6, and few tables below those are running. 5/10 usually are not running, except some HU.
Haven't played for few months, but 1/2 and below are still very soft.

I only talked about 0.50/1 -5/10, but i would assume lower then that games are a bit tougher, but obv still soft. I staked some people a couple of years ago, and i still do on those stakes, so i feel like i have a pretty decent knowledge of how wr have changed. After KOTH was implemented on 10/20 + I will assume that games will dry out even more, if that is possible.

Spin & Go's happened.

Twas a black day.

Almost finished with a 10K -hand challenge at .10-.20 . Having an ok winrate, but the rake is just sick. 11-12 bb/100 (average from playing hu to 6max)

The % of rake is not that different up to 1-2

Shouldn't be a problem beating this stakes, a lot of overly passive players or to aggressive players in the wrong spots. But because of the rake I still think it would require a good table selection and some hu bumhunting. Got to have a good edge to beat the rake playing someone hu.

So you a mean 5.5-6BB/100 rake, right? Yeah that's ****ing crazy. And yes requires tight game selection.

I knew it was bad but didn't realize it was that bad! I checked the rake structures and the cap for $.10/$.20 is $.10, but for $.25/$.50 it's only $.16, so that's probably better. I don't find the play much different between the two.

Yes its in BB. Almost unbeatable.

Does that account for the value of StarCoins too?

The rake is not that high when playing microstakes full ring cash games. I think it can be a lot less.
It's definately possible to win at the micros when playing 3 to 6 players without paying that much rake.
And once a few people start playing, the table usually fills up.

I think it's also misleading for you to say the rake is 'x' specific amount all the time. The rake depends on how many pots you win and the size of those pots. (among other things)

The reason you are paying so much rake, is because you play mostly HU only games.

If you're gonna play HU all the time this will skew your results, but I guess it makes it easier to finish your 10K hands quickly.

It is interesting to hear about your 10k hand challenge though. Would be interested to hear more about it and also interested in your thoughts on HU at micros, as higher stakes offers a rake reduction for HU only games.

I've thought of a good way of posing a question I have about HU games.

Ok think of $5/$10 limit. It has a rake of 2% and cap of $0.50. (I do mean just HU games)
Imagine that it had a rake of 4.5% and cap of $5. Obviously this is a lot harder.
Would it literally be unbeatable?

Really interested to hear what you guys think and your answers.

I've never played 5/10, but if the rake was that high I'd expect it to be unbeatable against most opponents playing at that level.

Also I don't think Kine is saying the rake is fixed at 5.5-6 BB/100. That's just what he paid on average while playing everything from HU - 6max.

It would be unbeatable. No doubt about it.

played 5k of the hands 4-6 handed. and payed 4-4.5 BB/100 in rake on average. A little under 4 BB/100 when 6 handed.

Im not a great triple draw player, but I do think Im much better than most players playing 20cent. And I had a hard time beating the rake playing hu.

Beating a decent player that knows the rules in TD for more than 5-6BB/100 is really really hard. Got to have a really big edge.

Started the challenge after I bet someone that I could beat 20 cent for 10 bb/100 over 10k hands including rakeback. Still got 3k hands left, but will not play for a couple of months. Don't have the time at the moment.

Ah, that's very interesting. Thanks for your reply Kine17
Yeah I was thinking the rake BB/100 would be lower than 5.5, when 3 to 6 players.

I'm wondering how much you bet with your friend. Sounds like a good challenge, you'll have to let us know the results

Re: my $5/$10 question:

I think this means that Pokerstars have set the HU rake at .10/.20 too high.
Making it 'technically' unbeatable as well.

(I say 'technically', because of course there are more inexperienced players to be found in the micros than at $5/$10)

Although like you say, still playable if you know you have a really big edge.
I was thinking they should lower it, it would make tables start more easily and better for attracting new players.

I've been asking for them to do that for several years now. Won't happen, hu is not worth it.

I tried avoiding HU for a while, but not many people are willing to start games so I'm willing to take a small hit to get a game running. It usually gets going quickly.

Kine, would you mind sharing your actual win rate is? I've played with you, and I don't doubt that you're winning. Just curious how much can actually be made. I haven't tracked results for a while so I'm not sure what mine is.

Yes that's a good point.

If we look at some of the positives:

- players can sit at the table and wait for other players to join. I think quite a few people do this.
When you've got 3 players it's ok. This is good, it avoids the whole problem.

- you could take a small hit to get the game running, it probably works out ok.
table often fills up after the game gets started.

- If people want a cheap way to practice their HU strategy, it could be cheaper overall than higher stakes.
(it's gonna be cheaper overall than jumping into $5/$10 for example)

- If you have a really massive edge on the opponent, it can work out ok.

That's great you've already been asking them. I can imagine they are resistant. We should keep asking them.

I think Pokerstars are actually sort of shooting themselves in the foot here, and missing a good oppertunity to make the game more popular and generate more rake (because there would be more players).


I think people are often doing one of the things I listed in the 'positives' list above.

So pokerstars is missing out on 1.) players sitting out waiting for more players to join.
If pokerstars lowered the HU rake, we could be playing instead of just waiting.

And for players doing one of points 2.), 3.) & 4.) in the list: if pokerstars lowered the HU rake, they would start more tables & people would stick around longer with positive results.

Meaning everyone is happier and pokerstars makes more money too

Frankly, it's kind of delusional to think that lowering micro stakes 2-7 TD rake is on their radar, in even their top 10 of priorities. There's almost 0 chance that they will lower the rake there unfortunately. If they were to lower rake anywhere, micro 2-7 TD would be low down on the list that they would do it for.
You can feel free to keep asking, but if you know that it's very likely just a waste of effort, and if you have 0 hope for it. It has been done many times before.
It's just a sad state of affairs that many games/stakes are now unbeatable.

Yeah... I never actually said that! lol
I think you're putting words into peoples mouths here.

I wasn't making any assumptions (or statements) on how much attention the company pays to various aspects of its business.
I was just saying, I can see a way that would make their customers happier & make pokerstars more money.

Infact, I have an idea of how they can really grow their business, it requires more than this one thing.

Yeah, maybe.
Well there are a couple of options:
1.) Do nothing / say nothing (this probably has closer to that 0 chance that you mentioned)
2.) Do something / remind them. Let them know when they ask. (you've got nothing to lose by just telling them how things are)

If it helps, think of it in poker terms, number 2 is probably the correct choice. zero risk for potential +EV result lol
(positive result for everyone, including the poker site making more profit. everyone is better off.)

So next time a pokerstars rep asks how they can improve the draw games, we can mention it occasionally, as a suggestion.
10 voices are louder than 1 voice

You're free to do either option, of course. I don't know when the last time someone mentioned it to them. Maybe 1 person mentioned it just once, two years ago? Perhaps they need reminding? If you say nothing, how will they ever know what their customers think?