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Old 06-28-2020, 02:16 PM   #1
ninefingershuffle
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TD Pre Question

6 handed, utg raises, next in calls, folds to me in big blind with 8752.

Three bet and draw one? Call and draw two? Other?
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Old 06-28-2020, 05:20 PM   #2
cKone
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Re: TD Pre Question

Against two opponents with at least premium 2card draws, I much prefer drawing 2 to a wheel than bloat the pot out of position with a decent but way not premium 1 card draw.
Youre only pushing a halfway decent equity edge with your d1 if utg is drawing 2. If not, youre quite a dog against his range and face reverse implied odds if you both make a hand.

However this changes massively, if i have a read on either of those players of making mistakes like playing loose predraw, folding too soon, calling too loose, patting nines too early etc..
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:12 AM   #3
etm.
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Re: TD Pre Question

Always draw two here.
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Old 06-30-2020, 06:39 AM   #4
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Re: TD Pre Question

I think d1 is better and suspect solvers would agree.

I probably mix between call and 3! based on my assessment of opponent skill/ranges. D1 could be better when we call, as we value nut potential more in bigger pots.

Call underreps our hand which is kind of cool in this spot.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:00 AM   #5
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Re: TD Pre Question

I am not an expert in this, but I would always d2. It isn't like you are going to get many folds at some point by d1. In raw equity, the two card draw is only a little worse. You get in more bets later on with close to the nuts sometimes and save bets when you miss. If you make your 87 or a 987, you will be guessing a lot where you are at.

Last edited by deuceblocker; 07-02-2020 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 07-02-2020, 01:28 PM   #6
ninefingershuffle
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Re: TD Pre Question

Raw equity seems to be 37 for d1 and 33 for d2, but concur that equity is but one factor here especially out of position.
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Old 07-03-2020, 11:01 AM   #7
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Re: TD Pre Question

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
Raw equity seems to be 37 for d1 and 33 for d2, but concur that equity is but one factor here especially out of position.
It is not a big enough difference to compensate for playability. D1 works better against one opponent who you can maybe can to fold.
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Old 07-04-2020, 07:44 PM   #8
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Re: TD Pre Question

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
I think d1 is better and suspect solvers would agree.

I probably mix between call and 3! based on my assessment of opponent skill/ranges. D1 could be better when we call, as we value nut potential more in bigger pots.

Call underreps our hand which is kind of cool in this spot.
I would always play this as a D2 against 2 opponents and call. Call/D1 essentially opens up your hand as a rough 8 draw, both of your in-position opponents should have 7 draws or smooth(er) 8 draws. I can't see how call/D1 from BB is ever a good play since your opponents draw after you. What is your plan if both of your opponents draw 2 and you don't improve on the first draw?


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Originally Posted by deuceblocker View Post
It is not a big enough difference to compensate for playability. D1 works better against one opponent who you can maybe can to fold.
+1
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Old 07-04-2020, 11:30 PM   #9
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Re: TD Pre Question

Always d2 here seems like such a dated response - sorry. It could still be correct

Playing against d1 should be much more difficult for opponents, at least.

Shrug. I'm really not the right person to get too deep into optimal strategy for draw but I try to add to the discussions where i can - and really enjoy learning from more experienced players when they share.
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Old 07-06-2020, 09:21 PM   #10
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Re: TD Pre Question

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Always d2 here seems like such a dated response - sorry. It could still be correct
Dated because people look at the raw equity in a calculator now?

I agree you have to raise if you are going to d1. Otherwise, you might have to fold to bets and raises later on. You are only slightly underrepresented when you flat and d1. Raising doesn't cost that much, and you could even decide to d2 due to action after raising.
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Old 07-07-2020, 04:32 PM   #11
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Re: TD Pre Question

Is there merit to raise and d1 if both players flat call and d2 if you get reraised?
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Old 07-07-2020, 07:02 PM   #12
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Re: TD Pre Question

sure you can. but this is a spot where sacrificing some hot and cold helps you make easier decisions later on.

Last edited by kisada; 07-07-2020 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 07-08-2020, 12:47 AM   #13
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Re: TD Pre Question

No, I agree with d2, but if the action was in late position, raise and then decide based on the action might be best.
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Old 07-08-2020, 12:37 PM   #14
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Re: TD Pre Question

you mean if you opened button and SB/BB both called and they both drew 2?
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Old 07-08-2020, 12:44 PM   #15
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Re: TD Pre Question

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Originally Posted by kisada View Post
you mean if you opened button and SB/BB both called and they both drew 2?
We don't know how many they draw. We draw first, except if SB is playing. Say the raise was from CO or BTN. Then I would 3-bet and decide how many to draw based on whether I got 4-bet and if SB was in the hand how many SB drew.
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:12 PM   #16
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Re: TD Pre Question

well if CO opened and SB cc'd i'd just 3b this out of BB, regardless of what SB drew (assuming CO/SB just called the 3b pre).
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:53 PM   #17
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Re: TD Pre Question

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Originally Posted by kisada View Post
well if CO opened and SB cc'd i'd just 3b this out of BB, regardless of what SB drew (assuming CO/SB just called the 3b pre).
But if CO raised and you 3! and CO 4!s, then maybe draw 2.
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Old 07-09-2020, 08:41 PM   #18
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Re: TD Pre Question

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Originally Posted by deuceblocker View Post
But if CO raised and you 3! and CO 4!s, then maybe draw 2.
This exact question was discussed between some excellent players and jackasses of my acquaintance, and this line in particular seems quite villain dependent. If you have tough opponents who are not afraid to jam their equity or set up plays three-ways, you could easily find yourself in a big pot where you have gained no real insight, and watch the draws go 2:1:2, where folding mistakes you make later will be for more money.

I was initially of the 3b D1 school, with a backup of D2 if 4b, but against a certain type of aggressive player who could 4b a bad D1 and likely quick pat a lot of trashy hands, flatting the 4b and staying D1 to avoid forfeiting hot/cold equity vs wide pat/D1 range would be better, showing down the hand vs them with a high frequency.

The argument for D2 as a routine is that we don't surrender that much equity 3-ways, but four percent seems like a lot to abandon (if it is actually that much) in favor of playability, an argument we wouldn't listen to if a holdem player said he preferred T9o over T9ss because he wouldn't make as many dominated flushes (this is a bad analogy let me have it this one time ffs). If we stay D1 then we are crushing the caller's range if not the opener's, but D2 it's more of a horse race. I would love to draw cards for money again some day and work on spots like this, but for the moment I'm just thinking out loud from the lonely forever dusk of a pokerless quarantine.

I don't know if 3b D1 is fundamentally better than flat/D2, but I know for sure flat/D1 is going to be a trainwreck unless you've built a significant history and covered your weaker D1s by flatting say 2345 or 2346 some of the time.
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Old 07-21-2020, 08:10 AM   #19
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Re: TD Pre Question

I don't think 4% is a lot to abandon given we set up spots where put in big bets on turns and rivers with less equity, as well as forego spots where we can get a lot of big bets in with lots of equity.

Big bets matter so much imo, and placing yourself in spots with a weaker draw or a dead pat hand really does add up OOP.
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Old 07-21-2020, 02:14 PM   #20
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: TD Pre Question

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Originally Posted by Stryd0r View Post
I don't think 4% is a lot to abandon given we set up spots where put in big bets on turns and rivers with less equity, as well as forego spots where we can get a lot of big bets in with lots of equity.

Big bets matter so much imo, and placing yourself in spots with a weaker draw or a dead pat hand really does add up OOP.
I agree with this

And just to add, I’d like to see some details on that equity calculation. Is it assuming both your opponents are D2?

In a vacuum on a standard opening range someone opening up from UTG has a pat or D1 around 36% of the time. Given that there is a caller and we have a D1 this % is going to be less but it’s still a factor.
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