I step away for a second and i dunno what the deal is but seems like the entire table is now on fire. Multiple bets, raises, preflop, flop etc.

BTN seems to be the tilted one. SB is the stronger player. I don't know if he's good enough to be adjusting to BTN for any reason.

Folded to BTN who raises, SB 3B's, and i have:

87763

my instinct is drawing to an 8763 kinda sucks vs a 3B, but then drawing 2 with 763 also kinda sucks?



thoughts? thanks

4b draw 1. Folding this hand isn’t really an appealing option for 2 more in bb and calling and drawing 2 to any combo of 8763 also sucks.


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4 bet snow! Jk that's prob torching vs a standard (live?) tilted player but the paired 7s with bad draw makes me very temped!

cap it

4 bet D1 is what I would do

zoo, you can end up snowing, but there isn't really anything to gain by snowing right away. Take at least one shot at making a real hand and you will also see how many everyone is drawing.

This is what I see really strong players do in this spot: 4bet, D1, fire flop, pat almost 100 percent of hands and barrel.

Somebody gets out of line, somebody else adjusts and isolates, that's the spot where both of their ranges are weak enough that they can find folds someplace unimproved. And this is precisely the kind of hand to to it with. You're blocking a bunch of key cards and you have a shot at even making something legit.

Is it standard to 4b any 1cd here? My default would be to flat pre because of how rough we are. If you must, Can also flat with say 2345 and some 7xxx so our flat d1 range isn't all rough 8s.

If SB draws 1 and leads, we can snow raise to try squeeze out BTN. If SB d1 and checks, we can opt for free card.

@zoo. Snow pat from start is bad without more deuces in hand.

I find it really hard to effectively balance a flat/D1 range because even my best D1s are still vulnerable, and given game conditions I think both villain ranges are pretty wide and mostly D2s here. My default with any D1 I play would be 4bet. Live I would not be surprised to see btn D3 open and SB D2 iso, and in those cases all D1 4bets are straight value, but hands like OP need to look the same as your D1 wheels etc. to have good playability later in the hand.

There are some bad D1s you fold and some marginal blocker hands you could either take snow lines with or fold, but for run-of-the-mill D1 hands where you want to take a card, I prefer to keep my range inscrutable with a routine 4b.

Don't split your range by calling and drawing 1. Raise and D1 all day long given your reads. Maybe in a tougher game against stronger opponents with better ranges you can fold. This doesn't sound like that scenario though based on your read of the BTN.

It doesn’t match Lhe situations though. Sometimes small blind will draw 2 and we wish we capped. Even if he always draws one we chop up the button by jamming our draw 1 range.

In this spot, sure, BTN and SB 3b are wide enough where any d1 we have we *can* 4b for value. But:

A) can it still be profitable to flat some d1s in this spot? Would also be good to know if there a 5b cap.

B) What if opener and raise come from earlier. Do you still adhere to raise or fold your d1s?

Well sure its profitable to do anything other than fold. But it’s hard to balance splitting range and unclear that there is any upside. If we cold call and the draw goes 1-1-2 small blind isn’t supposed to bet into us unimproved anyway. So we gain nothing.

If their ranges are stronger than I will fold junky 4 cards so my 1-draw range strengthens too. So yes I think I can always cap it. 5 bet cap would be a little different animal.

-We gain by not putting in a 4th bet pre as an equity dog. If both players are D2, we are a very small-mid favorite. If one is D1, we are pretty far behind. If someone is pat... If it goes 1-1-2 and we get a free card, that's also great for us. The plan is to call cheaply, draw cheaply, and hope to win at showdown. Snowraising a SB cb is only if you're feeling frisky. Can you also explain your reasoning why SB should never cbet UI? Seems he should cbet UI sometimes.

If we do 4b pre, I agree that draw 1 + immediate snow is very good.

Tbh we don’t seem to be looking at it the same way. If you have a tool that can show the predraw equity of 8763 against a four card range from the small blind, I would love to see it.

Phunk it seems like we have to be an equity favorite in that situation even if we think SB is heavily weighted to D1s because we are chopping up the button. Wouldn’t you agree with that?

I think I punched things wrong into trout. My bad.

Example:

2-7 triple draw sim, 100000 trials, 3 draws:
Dead cards: 7

Hand 0: 3h 4c 7c -- --: 2nd draw: stand pat on 9, keep 8, str8s to break hi: none, 3rd draw: stand pat on T, keep 89, str8s to break hi: none
Hand 1: 3c 6d 7s 8c --: 2nd draw: stand pat on 9, keep none, str8s to break hi: none, 3rd draw: stand pat on T, keep none, str8s to break hi: none
Hand 2: 2d 4h 6s 8h --: 2nd draw: stand pat on 9, keep none, str8s to break hi: none, 3rd draw: stand pat on T, keep none, str8s to break hi: none

Hand 0: 3 4 7 -- --: EV 25.0% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 25.0/74.9/0.1
Hand 1: 3 6 7 8 --: EV 31.6% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 31.6/68.3/0.1
Hand 2: 2 4 6 8 --: EV 43.3% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: 43.3/56.7/0.0

Percentages vary depending on exact cards, but we're not doing great when one person is D1 by these calcs

Ok, thanks for running an example. We aren't doing great, but we aren't doing too badly either. Almost 32% and we already had one of the bets into the pot blind.

But in the OP it was stated that the button was on rage tilt so the SB certainly may have a lot of D2s as well. It's a lil' meh when we cold call and the first draw goes 2/1/3.

But if we don't want to 4bet this hand, then my response would be to just fold it. If the raise came from earlier I would have folded it, even maybe from just the cutoff. To just call means we are either giving away too much info or we are losing too much value by trying to balance with stronger hands.

I agree with a fold pre if the following is likely true:

SB would only 3b 1cd (which is likely on the tighter side of average), button is opening good 2cd or better (also tight, since btns usually open at least 27,23-25). Basically if we have the equity of the calc in phunkphish's post. I think with that baseline equity and the relatively poor playability/RIO of our hand here I'd rather muck.

I would estimate that usually most players wouldn't be that tight though. And with the read given in OP I think folding is a pretty big mistake.

If one or both players are wider than that then I think we are best off 4betting rather than having a 1cd call range to balance here. I'm going into the hand hoping for some d2 and d3 action, and looking for spots to snow or pat a 9 or T if we don't make an 8 soon.

Dboy but if they're that tight pre then doesn't it mean they're likely tigher post-draw and therefore snowing will be more profitable?

Well in my hypothetical tight players scenario both villains will be getting the correct odds to draw to river. At least if btn catches a 1cd at some point. I think between them they just make a hand too often for us to try to snow and barrel through.

I could be wrong though, just going off experience and I don't know the actual % at least one player makes an 8 or better here.

If they are truly that tight pre we are printing money from walks but we need to adjust and cut loose the bottom of our range that is playable against normal players. I'm not sure but I wouldn't think turning that part into snows instead of folding is better, especially out of position with very little fold equity until the river betting.

is this standard? i can see the argument for wanting to have snows in your range to make river easier to play(?) / more balanced?
my default is to continue drawing if i brick, and as for other d1/pat scenarios, i just vbet 87542+ and either fold or call a raise depending on where i am in my range. maybe this is too transparent and i should add a snow or 2 like this one?

Think he meant 100% of the time with this particular hand. And it’s at the very bottom of your range so it’s the hand to do it with.

By the way this hand is very doggy so if small blind is mostly a D1 reraiser I’m fine with folding it and just have bottom be slightly better at 8762

My standard would be to fold, but in the described situation cap, D1, and buckle up. Possibly end up snowing if you catch another pair or 2 possibly not.

yeah, this is what i was eluding to. this hand IS the bottom. the only merit i can see tho for snowing is to make our entire range easier to play on river (which i'm not completely sure about). in a vacuum, i doubt this is the best way. a draw's a draw. like if we're all going 1-1-1 on river, i wouldn't say we're not in bad shape.