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Old 08-06-2018, 03:18 PM   #1
/ / ///AutoZone
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rough draw

villain past history: folded 23xxx faceup in sb when folded to him
have also seen him c/r pat 97 oop hu vs a 1 to pat player in co, and bet river after pat, pat
hand:
i open sb 457AT, he calls
2, 1
34567
check, bet, call
1, pat
34557
check, bet, i raise, 3bet, i call and draw

my thoughts: maybe the 5 is not a great blocker to use?
maybe i should stop trying to bluff oop vs pats?
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Old 08-06-2018, 04:02 PM   #2
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Re: rough draw

Iíd consider xr snowing after the first draw. As played Once heís pat I think Iíd just xc and draw again, leading 8s, 2s and 6s. xc 9 and T


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Old 08-06-2018, 04:04 PM   #3
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Re: rough draw

Just xf the turn

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Old 08-06-2018, 04:08 PM   #4
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Re: rough draw

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Just xf the turn

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His range should be rough given preflop so I donít think this is a great idea.
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:47 AM   #5
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Re: rough draw

If he was planning on snowing at some point I would think he would be 3betting pre so if I did draw Iím not calling that light on the river. Anything possible but I consider it less likely.

Itís a tiny pot with no dead money from the blinds and just a single raise pre so I donít think a fold is that bad.

Sometimes players just call with hands like 3467 and ginned a deuce which were very live.
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:26 AM   #6
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Re: rough draw

I prefer to raise and rap pat with straighty blockers in position. I am wondering what have the most value in this situation though. Do you have too much of a hand to pat with it maybe?
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:21 PM   #7
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Re: rough draw

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Originally Posted by OnTheRail15 View Post
His range should be rough given preflop so I donít think this is a great idea.


Sure but we have 3457, very low in our 4 card range. And a hand that is in crappy shape vs weak pats. I agree with turn fold.
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Old 08-07-2018, 06:45 PM   #8
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Re: rough draw

The problem with making some move is nobody is going to believe you BvB. Since they call down wider you block fewer hands so pairing your 5 and having made a straight at some point isn't enough like it could be MP/BB. If it wasn't about the straight and any pair triggers you it's too much bluffing for your range. Players are going to take more showdown-bound lines SB v BB, not lay down their pat 8s or 9s.

I'm not saying I never try to bluff in spots like this; I'm just saying it never works for me. You don't quite have odds to draw to that deuce so I'd abandon ship on the turn. Say something about folding 8 perfect.
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Old 08-08-2018, 05:07 AM   #9
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Re: rough draw

i also considered c/r snow on flop, but decided against it being i drew 2. i usually try to avoid this, but vs villain's perceived range, i agree c/r flop might be better.
turn, i also felt like i wasn't getting good enough odds to draw, so opted to raise for reason given above.
villain should only have a 2 if he picked one up on the draw, so i felt i had a lot of good blockers to c/r turn and barrel river if he called/patted behind.
i'm somewhat confused about people wanting to c/f turn. should i wait for a better hand to snow with? or should my bluffing range simply be 0% in this spot?
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Old 08-08-2018, 07:22 PM   #10
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Re: rough draw

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Originally Posted by / / ///AutoZone View Post
should i wait for a better hand to snow with? or should my bluffing range simply be 0% in this spot?
0% sounds good to me. I know it's exploitable/exploitive. As I said my experience is that if someone pats here they are immovable at that point and will nearly always take their hand to showdown. More likely he calls down a 9 or even a T from the check/raise than giving up after patting it. Earlier points about opponent calling to draw one pre also show that his most likely holding is a ragged draw that got there and won't fold. If you want to have some bluffs you could wait until you have trip deuces or something that more effectively prevents him from being strong.

The only hope you have is to move them off another bluff, and risking 2 BBs to win 4 BBs you need villain to fold 1/3 of the time. I don't think any player has that many bluffs here, do you? I adjust by value betting wider - even the best 9s are a go since I expect this guy to be drawing one to an 8 or 9 and keeping a 9 or T here. I've even seen a Jack keep instead of drawing.
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:01 AM   #11
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Re: rough draw

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Originally Posted by / / ///AutoZone View Post
i also considered c/r snow on flop, but decided against it being i drew 2. i usually try to avoid this, but vs villain's perceived range, i agree c/r flop might be better.
turn, i also felt like i wasn't getting good enough odds to draw, so opted to raise for reason given above.
villain should only have a 2 if he picked one up on the draw, so i felt i had a lot of good blockers to c/r turn and barrel river if he called/patted behind.
i'm somewhat confused about people wanting to c/f turn. should i wait for a better hand to snow with? or should my bluffing range simply be 0% in this spot?
3.5% obviously

Seriously it should be low given small size of pot and heís pat

As a practical matter no one will ever know you donít snow a pat in a pot this tiny
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:57 PM   #12
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Re: rough draw

Slight correction / disagreement : small pot size should lead us to bluff *more* but still not often.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:38 PM   #13
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Re: rough draw

I was thinking they wouldn’t really be taking pot size into consideration and just defend in same manner based on holding therefore it seemed like the same risk but with less rewards. But I’ll defer to others experiences and reads on that
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:56 PM   #14
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Re: rough draw

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Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
I was thinking they wouldnít really be taking pot size into consideration and just defend in same manner based on holding therefore it seemed like the same risk but with less rewards. But Iíll defer to others experiences and reads on that


He means theoretically you are supposed to bluff more when the pot is smaller (when you can bet a larger percentage of the pot)


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Old 08-09-2018, 11:04 PM   #15
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Re: rough draw

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Originally Posted by OnTheRail15 View Post
He means theoretically you are supposed to bluff more when the pot is smaller (when you can bet a larger percentage of the pot)


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Yeah I get ya guys but if heís relinquishing the same amount of hands then an adjustment would be to bluff less
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