Never in my life would I play that hand with 975 on the bottom empty middle and QQ on top. You're making too many assumptions and now you MUST make your hand in both bottom and middle just to catch up.

OOP head-up, I play it QQ5 - 97 - empty top. Heads up many cards will be live after the first few draws, I can make a lot of 5 pair boards that will win often enough to be profitable (i.e. 2 pair bottom, 2 pair middle, big pair top).

Aren't the royalties and subsequent trip to Fantasy Land worth the risk?

I would never put Qs up top with that starting hand. Why would you bother throwing the hand from the start? It's a really interesting game, and fantasy land makes it even more interesting. Most of the time when I'm entering fantasy land, I do it when I'm foulsafe mid and bot. Lets say I have full house/trips botom and 2p mid/AA, and drawing for a Q. In this case, you'll be drawing for 2-3 perfect cards to get there.

I'll point out another interesting thing about beginners. Beginners uses the top to "stack ****ty cards". Their top always looks like 234. Then they start putting pairs there early. Next phase, pair up top around 7s way too early, and then they foul cuz they are blank in the middle. When you tell 'em about Fantasy land, they put QQ up top instantly, lol.

I've see people go for the flush OOP waaaaaaay to often at the Android OFC App by Corvid Apps.

HU, your opponent start off with:
2
9 9
J K

Your turn, you're dealt
K J 7 8 8

How would you play it? I would probably put 7,8,8 bottom and K,J mid, expecting to get atleast 2p bot, pair the K or J mid and a decent highcard/weak pair top and try to scoop it.

That looks good to me.

If OOP are you going like this? Or is that too conservative.

7
88
KdJc

j
k
887

I had the same thought.

But what about

Q86 7 Q ? oop

that seems more compelling to set QQ up top and 876 in back. looking to hit clean 2pr in back or an open ender early on, then hope to back into something.

=================

re: K J 7 8 8 i also like

J
K
887

for the obvious reasons, more value overall improving top... plus random backdoor JJ royalty equity

oop seems like a no brainer
7
88
KdJc

I have severe problems with setting the top even HU... When is it appropriate to throw cards smaller than 6 there at the beginning (hoping merely for a small pair there and a bigger pair in the middle)? Do I understand it right that it's not worthy early if there's a solid draw at the bottom (a gutshot or even a backdoor flush), which increases the chance of getting a royalty at the top while not fouling?

I'm yet learning, playing RUB 60+5 (~$2) 4-man HUSnGs and failing to show the right level of aggression when I'm behind in total score with 1-2 hands out of 6-8 left.

E.g. here's a fifth hand of a semifinal out of six where I was OOP 6 points behind. The scoring system is 2/6, without fantasy, with standard top royalties (66 gives 1, AAA - 22) and such bottom ones: straight - 2, flush - 4, full - 6, quads - 8, SF - 10, royal - 15 (doubled in the middle, plus a middle set gives 2). Villain is aggro, steams in the chat at times, likes speculative starting setups like a small pair or two suited connectors at the bottom, a high card up front.

Hero
T: 5
M: 9
B: T 9 6

Villain
T: K
M: A
B: 7 4 4

Hero 2 -> ?

I feel that I was cluelessly clicking buttons. How should I have set the low non-clubs? Thanks!

Help a noob

Villain is first to act with:
J
7
QQ4

Hero looks down and sees that he has:

KQ863

and sets it:

Q
86
K3

The question is:

a) what would you have done in Hero's situation
b) how would Hero set it if he were first to act

Your turn, you're dealt
K J 7 8 8

I'd play it:
Nothing on Top
KJ
887 <--adding 1 non dead card on the end ASAP

I wouldn't match him KJ on the bottom; the dead outs and even race is a turn off.
Instead, I'd focus on the 9's that are beating me in the middle & not worry about the 2 on top.
After adding a non-dead card to the bottom I'd focus on pairing the middle & then maybe, just maybe, I might get 6's or better paired on the top.
Worst case, I'd go for K high T's/lower on top.

What does Villain think he is going to put with his KJ?:

He has half the 9's & half the K/J's are gone
You have half the 8's & a quarter of the 7's
He's committed to pairing his 2's or using the A as a high so there goes those outs for the bottom...

Because he paired the middle, all of his energy is going to go towards pairing the bottom...I'd just watch him squirm and go from there

This is a little aggressive, but I think there are enough ways to avoid fouling later in the hand:

Q
57 <--Burning a gasp! I know...
Q9

1) Diamonds go to the bottom.
2) If I got a 9(early)/K/A, I'd play it in the middle
(if I already played 9 in the middle then I'd play K/A in the bottom, and if K/A played to the middle then I'd pair my 9's on the bottom...oh the complexity)
3) Q before 2 pair on the bottom & K/A/2pair in the middle, then play Q on the bottom.
4) 6 in everything but diamonds put on top.
5) It really depends on what your opponent turns up.

I still have never played Fantasy Land

I think that the correct play is to stand in the middle of passive and aggressive plays.

This. Upon seeing Hero's KJ, Villain will change the strategy and aggressively draw to a flush or, in an emergency case, a straight. If he hits, which will happen often because Hero is holding only one heart blocker, he'll have few problems with scooping with a royalty because the pair of nines in the middle is not so easy to crack and allows for a low pair at the top. Imho Hero's best counterstrategy is avoiding a foul while chasing a boat at the bottom. I see hardly any defensive resources for Hero besides boating up. (Setting K7/88/J to chase diamonds is problematic because 88<99 and K7<KJ.)

The situation is pretty mirror to the previous one. I like KQ/86/3 (and OOP too, though I'd pray hard to see fewer than two clubs in Villain's hand) due to way bigger flexibility, especially at the bottom, and the possibility of royalties; K3/86/Q needs to pair up in the middle and bottom, with close to no royalty chances to compensate for the foul risk.

Feel free to troll me

Put the 2 in the middle.

Villain really should have played:

Nothing up top
K7
A44

Because Villain played...
7 4 4

...he is in deep against your...
T 9 6

(If you had played 95 in the middle then his
lone A would be in trouble:
It is from here that I'd suggest placing the 2 up top for the live outs as Villain is unlikely to pair his kings while at the same time you will likely pair greater than 2's in the middle.
If you got an A or 2 then you would throw it up top to destroy his king)

Pair the T/9 on the bottom and you destroy his 4's then move to the middle and top to crush him.

Had he made a stronger play then you would not be attacking him so efficiently.

Thanks for the advice!

As far as chasing 2-flushes goes, here's the climax of my degeneracy (BBV, lol at Russians)...

It was hand 4/8 of a $2 4-man HUSnG final, I was leading +4 over an aggro reg (also a Russian ldo) who had been routinely putting big pairs up front (even despite the absence of fantasy). Wasn't I reckless, putting a 4-flush in the middle with such a weak bottom? (I'll do the math after some sleep...)

Hero (OOP)
Top: 5
Middle: Q 7
Bottom: A 2

Villain
Top: -
Middle: 4 3
Bottom: A 8 6

Hero J -> Middle
Villain J -> Middle
Hero K -> Middle (praying, 'no 5th spade, one time!')

Nothing I say is "advice" as I have been playing Open Face Chinese for less than a week

I'd prefer that you call it a "discussion"

After some thought, I'd have to agree with coon74 and say that I probably should have played it either KQ/86/3 or K8/Q63/--

The queen is a thorn in this hand since there is but one left in the deck.

I disagree- villain's play gives him a realistic shot at a boat and KK up top, and makes it fairly easy for him to not foul if he bricks off.

imo you're worrying too much about about beating your opponents hands- OFC is a game of not fouling and making royalties, you shouldn't go into a hand trying to beat someone's pair/2 pair. Go for the big royalties and fall back on not fouling/getting scooped.

Game with a doubling cube (speeds the game up by a lot):

Lets have some fun:

Hero:

2
--
88A <--- Face down card

Hero cubes to 2, Villain accepts, hero turns over A for two pair

Villain sets:

--
T
K225

Hero: 6, middle.

Villain:

--
T
K225 <--- Face down card

Villain cubes to 4, Hero?

Should hero accept quadruple stakes?

If Hero accepts and Villain turns over a 2 then Hero is going to sweat.
If Hero sees K, 5, random card then he can hold the cube until the end of the game to try to punish Villain with royalties and possibly a sweep.

In the game:

Hero accepts the cube, Villain turns over a 2

wtf why is villain playing K2225 on the bottom???
he just hates boats?

I agree with this setup. Keeps all options open. If we get a live card on 6th I'm probably putting it down with the 8s.

I'd delay putting a blank to the bottom until Villain gets a broadway card or a heart. It will be pretty decisive: he may put A/K/Q back to play safe aiming at a back pair or broadway (in which case Hero should put the next blank to the bottom going for 2p) or put non-heart A/K/Q up front aggressively (aiming to either foul or scoop big with a bottom flush), depending on Hero's cards at that moment (specifically, the number of hearts in Hero's hand), in which case Hero should go for a bottom boat because bottom 2p/trips will make no difference from a pair - Villain will either foul or beat any 2p/trips.

This Villain's strategical fork also explains why Hero should put the jack up front - this attacks the top effectively and strips Villain of the strategic option of putting a non-heart J/T up front to chase a bottom flush not worrying about the middle and top.

The weakest hands I'd apply for a fantasyland visa with OOP are like 643/-/QQ or 22/K/QQ, allowing me to get there 25-30% of the time if I'm not mistaken (I don't have Android/iOS devices so have to calc by hand). 867/-/QQ will hit back 2p/straight a bit over 60% of the time as I've explained in a probability thread but the main problem will be with collecting KK+ in the middle (which, I reckon, will happen 20-25% of the time) and avoiding 2p bigger than 8's up there to prevent a foul in case the bottom is 8/7's up.

A single-pair AA/KK hand will appear in the middle like 15% of the time; you can put the next 8/7/6 up top if you see good straight prospects later in the hand, i.e. the absence of your backdoor straight outs in Villain's hand with 4+ cards to draw, and get the straight about half the time... hmm, I think you'll enter the fantasyland less often than 15% of the time either way, which will net you 20-ish points, while 85%+ of the time you'll lose 6 points, so going for it seems more -EV OOP than setting QQ/8/76 nittily, hoping for a small top royalty.

Putting Q86 back seems slightly inferior OOP too because of the lack of information about the number of diamonds in Villain's hand - the a priori chance of hitting the flush is then 46-48%. In general, I strongly prefer to be IP when putting a 3-flush back in the initial setup - it allows me to see the number of my outs stolen by Villain's hand, which makes a huge equity difference.

Both 22255 and 55522 is a smaller boat than Hero's threat of AAA88 or 888AA.

Villain decided to go for an early two pair/luck trips & attack the middle and top to win at double stakes for a 2pt 2 of 3 or cube to 4 with trips for a 24pt sweep.

If hero made his boat, which he did, it was worth 12 pts but he could not raise the stakes unless Villain passed the cube by bluffing with a weaker 2 pair.

Assuming Villain would only raise with trips on the bottom, hero was far behind unless he made his boat; Villain ended up winning middle and top for 4 pts and would have swept with trip two's had Hero not made his boat.

Hero ended up winning 24 pts less 4, Villain could have swept for 24 but it wasn't his time to shine.

You would have to play a few cube games with your friends...

That doesn't explain why he played the K on the bottom. What possible good does it do there?

There are a lot of ways to approach the game, but if your opening strategy *ever* involves punting royalties, you need to rethink that.

6
83
KQ

Yes,

K22/T/5 or the more ballsy 225/KTs/-- or rejecting the cube would have been the standard response. Just hold the cube until you hit your boat and know that you are likely to also win two out of three then cap with a 4 cube.

I suppose that I could write something in Python and run it billions of times to see if Villains play was truly a bad one.