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Old 07-10-2020, 01:23 PM   #1
deuceblocker
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Old TD hand I got berated for

I raised UTG 6-handed with 2787 and got 3-bet by the SB who draws 1. I decided to draw 3. I made a wheel and got in 4-bets after the 3rd draw. SB accused me of playing 2 card bingo. How bad were the open and the d3?
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Old 07-10-2020, 02:56 PM   #2
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

Its a VERY speculative open - easily punished and outgunned by our opponents. The 2nd 7 makes us a little happier. If we encounter resistance, snowing will probably be more profitable than realizing our equity via d2 or d3.

D3 is quite bad - we have a much better chance of making a serviceable low from d2, and we lose too much equity and playability, even though we do increase nut potential. Hand becomes much easier for villain. Snow should be much better than d3.
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Old 07-10-2020, 06:33 PM   #3
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

if daniel negraneau can fold 256 UTG you can fold 278 too
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Old 07-11-2020, 07:45 AM   #4
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

Do we mean drawing 2 and then snowing unimproved or snowing pre?
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Old 07-11-2020, 09:25 AM   #5
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

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if daniel negraneau can fold 256 UTG you can fold 278 too
Was this in an MTT? Some people play tighter in some MTT situations. I can't see DN folding 256 in a cash game.

I don't understand the remark about snowing. It is hard to snow against someone who draws 1.

This was from several years ago. I know how to play better now, and I may have thought I could play loose with a skill advantage against people who were even worse.
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Old 07-11-2020, 01:23 PM   #6
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

it's from his chapter in ss2
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Old 07-11-2020, 01:28 PM   #7
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

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Do we mean drawing 2 and then snowing unimproved or snowing pre?
Open to suggestions on the best snowing line for this spot - not snowing pre.

My initial thought is d1 and pat is a more credible snow but maybe that gives up too much equity? We can still convert our snow back into a draw if we catch well.
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Old 07-11-2020, 06:06 PM   #8
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

Very bad open
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Old 07-12-2020, 06:04 PM   #9
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

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it's from his chapter in ss2
I reread DN's chapter and I don't see where he says to fold 256 UTG or what hands to open from early position. He says you can open 23 24 25 and 27 and some crappy 2 card draws from the BTN and 234 237 235 245 247 and 257 can be played regardless, presumably against a bet and raise and from UTG. I would infer from that that 256 is a marginal open UTG.

That may be partly why I didn't know what to open UTG, because DN doesn't tell you. I probably should be tightening up more in ep. I would assume 2787 can be opened from CO, since 27 might be loose but OK from CO.

Is there somewhere with tables of what to open from where?

I would probably play looser anyway, because I usually play TD in a rotation and play looser in my better games and tighter in my worse games.
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Old 07-12-2020, 09:01 PM   #10
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

hm, i recalled it differently

don't think there's any table that i know of.
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Old 07-13-2020, 11:09 AM   #11
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

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I reread DN's chapter and I don't see where he says to fold 256 UTG or what hands to open from early position. He says you can open 23 24 25 and 27 and some crappy 2 card draws from the BTN and 234 237 235 245 247 and 257 can be played regardless, presumably against a bet and raise and from UTG. I would infer from that that 256 is a marginal open UTG.

That may be partly why I didn't know what to open UTG, because DN doesn't tell you. I probably should be tightening up more in ep. I would assume 2787 can be opened from CO, since 27 might be loose but OK from CO.

Is there somewhere with tables of what to open from where?

I would probably play looser anyway, because I usually play TD in a rotation and play looser in my better games and tighter in my worse games.
I had some articles printed in CardPlayer where I ranked the various two cards based upon whether they had a 2, a 7/8, how many different eight or better hands they can make, and the average strength of the hands they can make. From this, I put together a suggested opening chart.

256 is the last hand of the hi-jack. Pairing a 2 would make it a LJ open but not with a paired 5 or 6 imo

278 I have as a CO without any pairs. Would not open it earlier with the paired 7.
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Old 07-14-2020, 11:21 PM   #12
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

I agree 2787 was a terrible open UTG. However, I am not open folding 256, 823, 824, or 825 from any position. From a GTO standpoint, sure they are folds, and maybe at some really tough game. However, opponents can make so many mistakes, drawing mistakes as well as betting mistakes. I open and call looser predraw than any recommendations.
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Old 07-15-2020, 03:49 PM   #13
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

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I agree 2787 was a terrible open UTG. However, I am not open folding 256, 823, 824, or 825 from any position. From a GTO standpoint, sure they are folds, and maybe at some really tough game. However, opponents can make so many mistakes, drawing mistakes as well as betting mistakes. I open and call looser predraw than any recommendations.
Any advice to fold hands such as 256 and 258 from the LoJack and earlier are educated opinions. How do you know they are GTO folds? Canít recall any resource suggesting 238 and 248 are folds from LJ.

The only thing that possibly exists is empirical data from a tracker with a large amount of hands played.
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Old 07-15-2020, 07:28 PM   #14
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

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I raised UTG 6-handed with 2787 and got 3-bet by the SB who draws 1. I decided to draw 3. I made a wheel and got in 4-bets after the 3rd draw. SB accused me of playing 2 card bingo. How bad were the open and the d3?
Drawing 3 to a 2-7 is fine, even in limit. Getting four bets in after patting twice is breathtakingly good.
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Old 07-15-2020, 08:02 PM   #15
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

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Drawing 3 to a 2-7 is fine, even in limit. Getting four bets in after patting twice is breathtakingly good.
I didn't pat at all. I made the wheel on the 3rd draw and he probably had a #5 or better.

I decided to draw 3 because I figured my 87 draw wouldn't be good if he made his one card draw. I figured he wasn't 3!ing a LJ open without a pat hand or 1 card draw to an 8. However, I think now that he could make me fold too much if I didn't catch.

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The only thing that possibly exists is empirical data from a tracker with a large amount of hands played.
I know there is no GTO data. I just mean that it is often better to play somewhat loose, but not that lose predraw, as people can make mistakes later on. Even more in baduecey, badacey and so on, where it is possible to make more mistakes, depending on your skill advantage.

Last edited by deuceblocker; 07-15-2020 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:56 PM   #16
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

I get it now. I read it as you made the wheel on the first draw.

I don't know about GTO data, but there are some solvers out there using decision matrices taken from parsed internet hands.
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Old 07-15-2020, 10:20 PM   #17
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

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I know there is no GTO data. I just mean that it is often better to play somewhat loose, but not that lose predraw, as people can make mistakes later on. Even more in baduecey, badacey and so on, where it is possible to make more mistakes, depending on your skill advantage.
When some winning player puts out advice on a starting hand chart I think it's somewhat implied that it's based upon someone having a relative skill edge over his opponents. But if you are honest that you don't or if you are new then you should play slightly tighter than the chart suggests. As a poker player, I don't think it's that unique that you believe that you are better than your opponents lol

In general though, in limit draw games if you open too loose from early positions you will get punished. There's just a certain "physics" that you can't overcome in that you will bump into powerful hands and/or end up in many multi-way pots too often and weak draws tend to exclusively make weak hands. Now I'm not talking about 256 or 258 from Lo-jack in 27TD, no one probably knows for sure if they are loser or not and if they are it's only a tiny amount. Mostly talking about hands where most players would consider to be cut-off or button opens only.

Badeucey and Badacey hands often go off multi-way and are more show down bound so I think you will get punished more often in them.
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Old 07-15-2020, 11:24 PM   #18
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

guess i don't understand the conversation at this point lol

if you wanna play more loosely because you're attacking weaker opponents then by all means. but their weaknesses need to be of a certain magnitude to make up for playing marginals.

i'm sure we're working under that assumption, though.
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Old 07-16-2020, 02:08 AM   #19
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

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guess i don't understand the conversation at this point lol

if you wanna play more loosely because you're attacking weaker opponents then by all means. but their weaknesses need to be of a certain magnitude to make up for playing marginals.

i'm sure we're working under that assumption, though.
I think he is saying we are playing hands based upon some standards where the assumption is that everyone is playing perfectly so he wants to add hands

But i donít think thatís the case and opening up too lightly from early position in these games is problematic.
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Old 07-16-2020, 01:03 PM   #20
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

shrug

i mean my opponents would have to be pretty clueless for me to really go far outside my ranges, but there's probably a spot for everything.
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Old 07-16-2020, 02:42 PM   #21
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

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shrug

i mean my opponents would have to be pretty clueless for me to really go far outside my ranges, but there's probably a spot for everything.
Playing weak reverse implied odds hands in early position is probably the worst mistake you can make in draw games so it would be somewhat ironic if you did it because you think your opponents make lots of mistakes
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Old 07-18-2020, 10:44 AM   #22
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

This forum is getting slow, so I thought I would liven things up.
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:19 AM   #23
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Re: Old TD hand I got berated for

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This forum is getting slow, so I thought I would liven things up.
Itís all good brother, no one meant to flame, we gave the feedback you requested and probably knew was coming
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