Fairly new to Omaha and O8 (ldo), and want to start off by plugging some pf leaks (which seem to be worse in hi compared to O8).

I'm too loose, but not sure where to trim up and why. With so many more potential hand combos in Omaha (relative to hold 'em), I'm not sure which marginal holdings I should be letting go pf (or maybe they're not even all that marginal). So below are a few example starters from a recent session where I wasn't sure.....

$0.02/$0.04, so VERY loose-passive, ~70% seeing each flop, only rare raises (which usually mean either AAxx or KKxx); the player to my immediate left is only fairly tight player. Raising pf generally chases no more than 1-2 people out (if that). So.......fold, limp, or raise for each of the following (raise or check for #9, obv)?

1) UTG at full 10-player table: AKKT
2) UTG+1 at full table, one limper in: 4J9A
3) UTG+2 at full table, one limper in: AK3Q
4) MP1 at 9-player table, three limpers in: 7KK7
5) CO at 8-player table, three limpers in: Q543
6) BTN at 9-player table, three limpers in: 2AK9
7) UTG at 8-player table: K39A
8) CO at 7-player table, UTG limp, HJ raised: QJ9A
9) BB with six limpers (including SB) in: Q3AA

Thanks....

Are we talking LO8 or PLO8? Makes some difference. I will assume PL since you come from PLO

Hand 4 is bad; Hand 5 not too good-I am almost always folding these hands

No 2, 7 & 8 I am mostly folding

I am prob raising 1, 3, 9 and sometimes 6 (if not rasing it I would limp along)

I'm sorry, I thought I'd written in that it was FL, not PL.
And actually not O8 at all (see title); was the unpopular Omaha Hi . That change your responses, I would guess???

limit high made me want to pull my hair out and punch people when I played it... I'd raise 1, 4, 8, 9.. I'd prolly limp all the others except 345q.

I'll arrange them in order for you, starting with the best and going down to the worst. Position is important, but not nearly as much as in a pot-limit game.

This is a premium starting hand. If raising doesn't mark Hero for aces (or aces with a wheel card), consider raising.

Also a premium starting hand. Not quite as good as the one above, but everyone should play this one.

This is a strong starting hand everyone should be playing.

I'm going to see the flop with this hand. Newbs can get in trouble with it. You need to make a good connection with the flop to continue. Consider raising pre-flop with this one, depending on your opponents.

This is a strong enough starting hand for a Newb to see the flop. The nine and the extra heart are drawbacks but it's still playable.

A trouble (trap) hand. It's good enough for a good player to play.

Meh. I'm seeing the flop with this one. You might flop something nice and if you do, you also probably have some redraw because the cards are coordinated. But since it's nice to have a flush draw, I don't like rainbows much. There's no chance at low, a definite drawback in a high/low game.

Probably playable for a good player. You're basically set mining with this starting hand, hoping mainly to catch a set of kings. Low pairs are more of a liability than an asset. The second nut heart flush draw can mean trouble if Hero lacks good card reading ability.

This is the worst of the starting hands you've presented. Probably best quietly folded.

Buzz

he's talking about limit hi btw

So he is! Thanks. I missed that.

Since this is the Omaha-8 forum, I assumed the hands were Omaha-8 hands. I was primarily interested in whether the post was about fixed-limit or pot-limit, and I skimmed looking for that alone.

Oh well... meh... the hands he listed are sorted and rated as per my opinion of them as limit-Omaha-8 starting hands. Omaha-high-only ratings would be quite different. I've played pot-limit Omaha-high-only a number of times (the $100 buy in game at Hawaiian Gardens casino in Los Angeles County), but somehow I never can relax and have a good time playing high-only. When I finally move to an Omaha-8 table a great sense of relief invariably comes over me. The high only game is tense with people more or less waiting to pounce and eventually pouncing (me included). The high/low game is relaxed, a matter of calmly trying to play with favorable odds. At least that's my take.

Regarding the hands I rated in the post above, for me, whether to fold, limp or raise would be dependent on various factors including how my opponents were playing and reacting.

Buzz

Thanks for all the kind replies, and my apologies for not specifying Limit in OP. I did read FAQ, and wanted to label the thread with a , indicating limit, but couldn't figure out how (I've never labelled one of my threads before).

Also apologize if this isn't the appropriate forum for LOhi questions (should I have posted in "Draw and Other Poker"?).

fwiw, not sure I'm going to play much more LOhi anyway (barely any tables running, and find myself agreeing with two responders that O8 seems more fun and relaxing; and easier somehow).

Not a big deal. Lot's of other individuals also evidently have a problem with the icons because for the most part a moderator adds the label after the thread is posted. (No problem with that).

Right below where I'm writing is a notice: "Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:"

And all the possible icons (unless you know some other way to put in an icon) are listed. You just click on the icon you want to use to label your thread. If you get it wrong or omit it, a moderator will eventually read your post and fix it.

I guess. There seems to be no place for Omaha-high threads if they're not about pot-limit Omaha-high.

Those forms of poker that have no specified place tend to end up in either the Draw and Other Poker forum or the Home Games forum.

Leroy2DaBeroy could probably answer that better than I could. He's a moderator for one of the Omaha-high-only forums.

It's often not crystal clear to me where posts best belong. Once in a while someone posts about fixed-limit-Omaha-high in the Draw and Other Poker forum. However, there's hardly any discussion when they do.

Although there's some overlap between fixed-limit (limit), pot-limit and no-limit, one could make a strong argument for splitting this forum into three separate forums. But for now at least we're making do with the icons , , to identify fixed-limit (limit), pot-limit and no-limit threads respectively.

The Omaha-8 forum is way, way down, 52nd, in the rankings of 2+2 forums in terms of usage. We're sandwiched between B&P and SSL.

52 B&P
53 O8
54 SSL

(Offhand, I don't even know what the B&P or SSL forums are. It would be pretty easy for anyone to find out).

NVG (news, views and gossip) dwarfs all the other 2+2 forums in terms of usage. I think it has more posts and reads than all the other forums put together.

Next time anyone posts about it in this forum, I'll move the thread to Draw and Other Poker unless Leroy2DaBeroy or someone else who knows advises me differently.

If you want me to move the thread to the Draw and Other Poker forum, I'll do that for you. But you have to ask. Or if someone continues seriously discussing LOhi (limit-Omaha-high) in this thread, I'll move this thread to the Draw and Other Poker forum. For now, at least, I'll just leave it here, but I have no objection if another mod wants to move it.

Buzz

Yeah, there's not really a good spot for it. Either here or Ssplo I would guess (spell it out very quickly that it is Fixed limit Omaha). Maybe Beginners?

Also, B&P is books and publications and SSL is Small Stakes Limit.

Thanks. I might have figured those acronyms out for myself if I had thought about it more, but as I age it's more difficult especially to switch my train of thought from one thing to another.

Meh. Still nice to be alive.

Buzz

Thanks for the info Buzz.
Could you tell us how your analysis would be different if this were PLO8?

Someone else could answer this question better than I.
But since you asked, I'll take a stab.
I don't think the order in which I arranged the hands above changes much, if at all, going from fixed-limit Omaha-8 to pot-limit Omaha-8. But I'd pay more attention to position.

9) BB with six limpers (including SB) in: Q3AA
This is still a premium starting hand but playing pot-limit I don't want to play any hand out of position in the small blind. However, with six limpers, if I was fairly certain BB would check (based on past performance) I'd complete to see the flop.

3) UTG+2 at full table, one limper in: AK3Q
This is also still a premium starting hand but UTG+2 with one limper seems like poor position. If I thought a raise would get me heads-up with UTG, I'd raise. Otherwise, I don't know.

6) BTN at 9-player table, three limpers in: 2AK9
This is a strong starting hand and we have position on the button. If Hero just limps, then the blinds probably complete and check, we probably see the flop six handed, and someone in ahead of Hero in position probably bets the pot on the flop. If that happens, depending on the flop Hero might have a difficult decision. To avoid that, I like a pot-sized raise, although the pot will be bloated if everyone calls the raise.

Pot-limit seems to me a more difficult (also more interesting) game than fixed-limit. I would not have answered your question if you had not asked be directly and I feel various other posters could have given you better answers. I don't want to answer questions about the other hands without knowing how Hero's opponents play.

8) CO at 7-player table, UTG limp, HJ raised: QJ9A
is still the worst of the starting hands presented. I don't want to call and I don't want to three-bet. Thus I'd fold.

Buzz

thanks buzz.

Hi Trex8063,

As is this is my first post on the forums I'd like to say a few general things. I've been playing fixed limit omaha hi at a local casino (20/40 fixed limit) for about 5 months now, and I think Fixed Limit Omaha HI is quite a fantastic game for several reasons:
1) FLO is a natural gateway for most recreational players from FL holdem ("It's just holdem but with 4 cards right?");

2)Most holdem players coming to omaha find something they like in every hand they are dealt - my regular live 20/40 game has 70% plus seeing the flop;

3) With just 1 other agressive player in the game (in addition to me), preflop action is usually capped when I enter a pot, and post flop is usually capped (if I'm continuing past the flop) - avg pot would be about $700, with $1700+ pots happening several times in a regular session;

4) Because the game has more variance than FL holdem, beginners and recreational players have more short term successes, I've personally seen players that have never played before walk away with $4000 in a single night - this is great as in the long run they are providing much more action than they would otherwise in a FL holdem game.

In summary, don't let anyone ever tell you that FLOhi is a stupid game, it's the complete opposite, all other things being equal, in todays poker world you can make a lot more money playing FLOhi than playing FL holdem.

Now that that's off my chest!!! .... In response to your post ...

My general pre-flop hand selection strategy depends on the table characteristics of the game I'm in. How many players are seeing the flops, and how do they play post flop, and most importantly, is there at least one other agressive player at the table who can be counted on to put in some raises.

For example, scenario A) a table with 6 - 7 players seeing the flop for usually 1 bet, who play well post flop (50%+ folding after the flop), is a completely different game than scneario B) 6-7 players seeing the flop for 4 bets, with 80% plus seeing the turn (for 2+ bets minimum).

In my opinion, in scenario B, a lot more hands gain value, specifically flush draws.

So I'll give my response to your question with 2 answers, one for table A and one for table B, I hope that helps you a little more than just a straight yes/no type answer.

Also, position is important in omaha hi for the informatin it gives you, but not to such a super critical extent as in other games.

Hand 1) UTG at full 10-player table: AKKT unsuited
Table A - I'd raise this hand and look to continue post flop regardless of almost any flop. At a tight table, an early raise will thin the field considerably and unless they flop huge they are releasing a lot of the time post flop.
Table B - I'd limp and call with this hand. It's strong enough to play, but besides flopping a set or boat, it's draw potential is very weak (no flush draws and its straight draws are limited and likely to be a chop)

Hand 2) UTG+1 at full table, one limper in: 4d Jh 9h Ad
Table A - This is a fold. This hand is marginal and in early position at a solid table this hand is not goign to play well.
Table B - This is a limp, re-raise. This double suited hand has 2 flush draws, but needs many callers to become profitable. In early position, I'm limping hoping 7-8 players come along and someone raises, so we can play this hand capped 7-8 ways and see a flop. Post flop you'll be ghetting the right price to continue if you flop even a single diamond (just call), and if you flop a flush draw or trips, you can go to the moon and bring 5 - 6 players along for sure (pot is huge)

Hand 3) UTG+2 at full table, one limper in: Ac Kc 3h Qh
This is stronger hand than hand #2, enough to play at Table A for a limp in early position. For table B, I'd play this the exact same as hand 2 above (limp re-raise).

Hand 4) MP1 at 9-player table, three limpers in: 7KK7ss
Table A: I'd limp most times with this hand, raising is ok too but with 3 limpers in ahead of you, at Table A you aren't goign to be continuing past the flop unless you flop a set or the nut flush/draw. Limping also adds deception at a tougher table.
Table B: I'd raise as you have enough players in to give you great immediate odds to flop a set or your flush draw. In addition, if the board flops paired, you'll almost always be getting the 10-1 immediate pot odds you'll need to see the turn to try and catch your full house. And for any other flop (overpair, small connected cards, etc), you can easily release this hand.

Hand 5) CO at 8-player table, three limpers in: Q543 ds
This is a fold in my books in all situations, a Q high flush draw and a 3 card straight just isn't going to play well in almost any situation, your straights will almost always be non nut or chopped in big pots, and your single Q high flush draw isn't' strong enough to be re-raising post flop if you do flop a flush draw. Also in the rare cases where you flop trips or a full house your opponents aren't likely to have anything most times, so you'll be heads up. Overall the implied odds from this hand seem to point to auto-fold.

Hand 6) BTN at 9-player table, three limpers in: 2AK9 ss
Table A: Fold. This hand is pretty weak.
Table B: This is a marginal hand at ever table, however, if the table plays VERY poorly post flop then you could enter but it would have to be for a raise and y ou'd be counting on both blinds calling FOR SURE. Otherwise with only 3 limpers the pot will never be big enough to justify this hand. If there were 6 limpers and a raise or two, then by all means enter with a raise or call but a fold isn't horrible either as there will be tons of better spots.

Hand 7) UTG at 8-player table: K39A ss (3 flush)
Table A: Auto-fold.
Table B: Probably a fold, but you could gamble and limp, and if there was 6 -7+ players in for and a raise by the time it got back to you, you could re-raise this hand and play it like hand #2. However, this hand has a lot less equity than Hand #2, so I'd be just as happy to fold here as well and just wait for a better spot.

Hand 8) CO at 7-player table, UTG limp, HJ raised: QJ9A ss
Table A: I'd fold, this is a pretty weak hand.
Table B: With so few players and only a jack high flush on top of the straight possibilities, this hand is probably a fold.

Hand 9) BB with six limpers (including SB) in: Q3AAss
Table A: In the BB, at a tougher table I'd probably just check my option. This is a premium hand for sure but besides it's AA, the flush draw is it's other main attraction and against 6 good players out of position, that's not worth that much. I'd rather have the deception factor. Double suited this hand is an auto-raise from any position, or with more connected cards (AAKQ ss or AAJT ss as an example), but just AAQ3 ss, limp is probalby best option. A raise isn't bad either, 50/50 depending on how bad table players post flop.
Table B: This is an auto-raise for sure. With a hand this strong at such a poorly playing table, for sure raise and hope for a re-raise. Players will play bad enough post flop to justify all your marginal draws (single spade flops, or board flops paired). Given 6 limpers already, your agressive opponents are likely to have folded or limped, so you're not looking at playing that big a pot, but still you've got to raise this hand against weaker opponents since for sure you've got the most equity at this point. Cross your fingers for a re-raise and a few spades on the flop!

I hope this diatribe is helpful in some ways! I've been wanting to post a reply for a few weeks now but never had the time to sit down and write. I'd like to contribute more and am happy to discuss omaha hi in general, hopefully there will be more discussions on this fantastic game in the future!

Until then, good luck at the tables and keep playing!
Cheers
Roswell

where the hell do they have a regular 20/40 FL omaha hi game?

The Great Blue Heron casino just north of Toronto (Ontario, Canada). Game runs every day, on weekends 2 full tables of 20/40 FLOhi is quite common!

One can only hope it spreads to other casino's where limit holdem is currently dominating

Roswell

Wow, great post oRoswell!

I used to play FLO back when Pacific Poker didn't have PLO available. Great game because people HAVE to see a flop, more so than O8. Every table was like you described in Table A, and I definitely agree with your reasoning on those scenarios. I don't have enough experience on that juicy Table B though.

I got into FLOhi the same way, my friend told me that "They have omaha!" at my local casino. I went excitedly to play assuming it was PLO, only to find it was fixed limit (wtf??? fixed limit??). I quickly decided that it should play just like a super loose game of fixed limit holdem so i sat planning to employ my strategy for playing that I woudl use in a crazy no-fold'em hold'em game, and luckily ran good in my first few sessions. After those first few sessions I began to think about the game more seriously and to come up with a specific strategy for Fixed Limit Omaha (especially super juicy games). Juicy Game B as I described it above seems to run every weekend at my local casino.

Although I have by no means enough data yet to show consistent winnings, I think I'm on the right track (I've been playing for 5 months now, as of this weekend I now have 462 hours played at 20/40 FLO).

In my opinion, the more variance a game has, the greater room for potential profit there will be long term. So the question is, what is a reasonable number of hours/hands played before a consistent winrate can be determined for a game with enourmous variance like fixed limit omaha hi?

The estimate I came up with was about 4x what it would be for a similar limit in limit holdem. I've seen numbers ranging from 500 to 2000 hours sample size for holdem before considering skill to be the dominant factor over variance. So based on my gorilla math above, that would be 2000 to 8000 hours of FLO, which would take me 18 - 24 months of playing to achieve.

What do you guys think?

BTW, just to get everyones lips wet a little, here's a super juicy hand of 20/40 FLO at "Juicy Table B" from this weekends session. Hands like this happen multiple times in a typical session (they are not common but by no means is this a rare occurrence)

I'm on the button and get the super sexy hand of Ac Ah Qc Qh. 5 players limp by the time the action gets to me (very typical), I raise, the sb calls, and the BB re-raises. All 5 limpers call the 3rd bet and when it gets back to me I cap the action (all 7 players call). We see a flop 8 way, capped. (32 small bets in the pot).

Flop is: Jh 7h 5c

A great flop for my hand, in theory 9 nut flush outs, and 4 overcard set draws neither of which make anyone a straight. Additionally I have a backdoor heart flush draw which is the equivalent of about 2 outs, and a backdoor broadway draw, which is the equivalent of about 1 out. So my hand has anywhere from 4 to 17 outs to improve, I have probably minimum 20% and perhaps 35% equity in an 8 way pot.

sb checks, bb bets, everyone calls, I raise, bb re-raises, a few people fold and I cap. We see the turn 5 way, capped. With the dead money from the folders, there is about 60 small bets in the pot.

The Turn is Jc, making the board: Jh 7h 5c Jc

This is a pretty good card for me, giving me 2 nut flush draws if no one made a full house, and if somone did have 2 pair or a set and filled up, I still have 4 outs with my overpairs to what is now nut boat draws. I decide that with my range of 4 to 22 outs against a field of 5 players that my hand is good enough for a raise for sure, and if I'm drawing to my worst case 4 outs, then it's not that big of a mistake to raise, as I'd get re-raised and still be getting the right price to draw to my 4 overpair boat draw outs.

BB checks, one player bets, I raise, bb and 2 others now just call. 4 of us see the river with what is now 38 big bets in the pot.

The river is 3h, making board: Jh 7h 5c Jc 3h.

Everyone checks to me. After some deliberation I conclude I'm probably best a decent amount of the time with my nut heart flush, so I bet. BB folds (he said later he had KK99), and the remaining 2 players call. Total pot 41 big bets.

Player one tables trip jacks AJxx,was looking to catch one of his danglers to make a boat, player 2 tables the nut straight 64xx that he made on the river, and I take it down with my nut flush. +$1240.

I hope you guys enjoyed reading that hand as much as I enjoyed playing it, and if there is anyone else out there that plays live FLO, please chime in, post some cool hands, etc, I'd like to hear from the tiny crowd out there that is somehow playing this amazing game of FLO!

1) UTG at full 10-player table: AKKT

Limp or raise, depending on table dynamics. If you want a big pot, raise. Generally speaking, in a good limit omaha game, there is no limiting of the field btf. If people want to play, they play.

2) UTG+1 at full table, one limper in: 4J9A

Limp. Not a strong hand.

3) UTG+2 at full table, one limper in: AK3Q

Ok for a limp.

4) MP1 at 9-player table, three limpers in: 7KK7

Good fit-or-fold hand against a player you know to have AAxx.

5) CO at 8-player table, three limpers in: Q543

Only playable in games where you are the only one playing little cards, and even then, marginal. Practice throwing this away.

6) BTN at 9-player table, three limpers in: 2AK9

Crappy hand. Raise/fold.

7) UTG at 8-player table: K39A

You can toss it unless you expect a family pot for one bet.

8) CO at 7-player table, UTG limp, HJ raised: QJ9A

You don't tell us about the HJ, but play this one and try to flop a T and a pair, a K and a pair or maybe 2pr. Marginal at best, but playable if you are a CO-defender.

9) BB with six limpers (including SB) in: Q3AA

If you have a big bankroll, you can pop it, but it is once again a matter of table dynamics as to whether I want a bigger pot when out of position.

...

In limit, I usually base my raise decisions on position rather than holdings: If people respect my raises and fold, I am either on fire and have all the chips, or am in a bad game; In games where there are multiple players on the river I raise the first two streets if I think it will allow me to show down a marginal hand cheaply, but other than that I am waiting for big hands in big situations.

Use the search function. There have been some good limit omaha threads in this forum.

thanks for the post roswell. Someone here pointed me to this thread. I've been playing 3/6/12 FLOhi at my local casino and was looking for some starting hand requirements, and you pretty much affirmed what i was thinking.

Btw, this casino is usually table B...7+ ppl seeing flop with no one folding on the flop

I played 2 dqays ago and managed to flop quads twice in a 2 hours session

Bump to keep it from archiving

I wonder if oRoswell is still playing this game...and if he'd be kind enough to share his bb/hr and whether he still thinks this game is beatable

Hi Azkid,

Yes, still playing! Here are my stats for the 20/40 FLO game

Total Hours:736.5 hours
Win Rate: 1.07 bb/hour ($42.62 / hour)
Total Win: +$31,389

I have also lost 14 of my last 15 sessions, before which I was at 1.4 bb / hour.

So yes definitely is a very beatable game and still highly enjoyable!
Roswell