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Old 08-27-2017, 04:18 PM   #26
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
clearly only way to settle dispute is with a HU badeucy match. sounds fun, I accept, any stakes is fine
I don't play poker. Challenge electrical, he's drawing one too
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Old 08-27-2017, 08:56 PM   #27
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

For the record, in a 4-way pot, D1> pat>> D2.

HU/3-way, especially with a convincing take on how villains will play post then I pat more often.

I'm drawing two... let me think... None of the time. Yeah, I'm never drawing two.
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:13 PM   #28
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
I don't play poker. Challenge electrical, he's drawing one too
Badeucey is a terrible game HU. It'a pretty dumb game overall, but it's a good addition to a mix and is popular with a lot of recreational players.
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Old 08-27-2017, 09:41 PM   #29
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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For the record, in a 4-way pot, D1> pat>> D2.

HU/3-way, especially with a convincing take on how villains will play post then I pat more often.

I'm drawing two... let me think... None of the time. Yeah, I'm never drawing two.
Seems like you may be a little overly confident without giving any real explanation, especially in a game that has not been explored deeply by many players.

It wouldn't surprised me at all that higher stakes players draw 2 here. The main goal of Badeucey, as well as many split pot games, is to scoop. If you are patting, you will rarely scoop because badeucey a very showdown bound game. Even if only two of the other 3 players draw until the river, one of them should improve to a badugi over 90% of the time and you will be fighting for half where you are only a decent sized favorite to win (in Badugi, you will improve drawing 1 to a 3 card hand about 60% of the time so the chance two players miss is 16%. In a 5 card draw game, it should be even higher than 84%).

If you draw 1 as opposed to drawing 2, you are 2x less likely to improve to a better badugi.

In summary I am not at all convinced that drawing 2 on the flop and turn in order to catch the 5,6,7,8 and back into a good 2-7 hand should be ruled out out the question.
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:49 AM   #30
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by NedSchneebly View Post
Seems like you may be a little overly confident without giving any real explanation, especially in a game that has not been explored deeply by many players.



It wouldn't surprised me at all that higher stakes players draw 2 here. The main goal of Badeucey, as well as many split pot games, is to scoop. If you are patting, you will rarely scoop because badeucey a very showdown bound game. Even if only two of the other 3 players draw until the river, one of them should improve to a badugi over 90% of the time and you will be fighting for half where you are only a decent sized favorite to win (in Badugi, you will improve drawing 1 to a 3 card hand about 60% of the time so the chance two players miss is 16%. In a 5 card draw game, it should be even higher than 84%).



If you draw 1 as opposed to drawing 2, you are 2x less likely to improve to a better badugi.



In summary I am not at all convinced that drawing 2 on the flop and turn in order to catch the 5,6,7,8 and back into a good 2-7 hand should be ruled out out the question.


I mean I play pretty big and I think you are completely utterly wrong. So does jon Locke. It sounds like you have your mind made up though.
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Old 08-28-2017, 07:36 AM   #31
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by NedSchneebly View Post
Seems like you may be a little overly confident without giving any real explanation, especially in a game that has not been explored deeply by many players.
Well, we don't have to argue about drawing two vs. patting anymore. Patronizing Electrical is clearly the worst play in this thread.

Last edited by Tapirboy; 08-28-2017 at 07:37 AM. Reason: now somebody say "no its not"
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Old 08-28-2017, 11:23 AM   #32
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Well, we don't have to argue about drawing two vs. patting anymore. Patronizing Electrical is clearly the worst play in this thread.
I didn't mean to sound patronizing, if anything his initial response was much more condescending without providing any real explanation.
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Old 08-28-2017, 11:32 AM   #33
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

If you draw 1 you're only about 17% to make a 5-8 badugi vs. drawing two you are about 31%. You're also probably barely over 40% to improve your lo side 23478 drawing 1 where you likely end up with none of the pot if you miss or are marginally ahead of the field if you get your 8 back. If you quickly improve to a 9 or T badugi early as well with a lo this can indicate strength and add knock out value for the lo side as well.
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Old 08-28-2017, 12:16 PM   #34
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by NedSchneebly View Post
If you draw 1 you're only about 17% to make a 5-8 badugi vs. drawing two you are about 31%. You're also probably barely over 40% to improve your lo side 23478 drawing 1 where you likely end up with none of the pot if you miss or are marginally ahead of the field if you get your 8 back. If you quickly improve to a 9 or T badugi early as well with a lo this can indicate strength and add knock out value for the lo side as well.
curious for your badugi math what assumptions you make because I'm sure your numbers are to hi. For examle, if you make a 9 badugi second draw, if you get the offsuit 5, 7, or 8 back, if you make an offsuit 7-8 low etc.... unless your plan is to just draw 2 inifintely until we make an 8 badugi or get scooped

Further, I'm not going to get into this to much but its the most important point that nobody considers (any why I disagree with everyone) and you almost certainly didn't when doing the math and thats the effect of card removal in this spot.

When people don't 3 bet pre and take 2 in a multiway spot like this their hands tend to be heavily concentrated to deuceless 3 card hands, 346, 356, 456, 347, 357, 367, 457, 567, and 3 the card 8 combos.

Having 3 players that most likely have this range of hand just absolutly crushes our chance for improving on the badugi (and the low as well obviously by moreso in badugi since we already have a strongish hand that can showdown unimproved).

If you run some badeucy sims with pretty accurate realisitic representaitons of peope's ranges here I think you will fin patting is certainly more attractive that you may think nd drawing 2 is clearly the worst. I think its close between pat and draw 1 but lean towards pat for reasons previously mentioned and fact that other people dont seem to care about this enough.....

Also, if they don't have that range then they had a 3 card 7 draw nd a 2 card and if thats the case Ill take my chances with #10 and nut 3 card. Yes, we can get scwrewed if one player makes 7-8 badugi and the other makes a 7 low but thats hard to do.
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Old 08-28-2017, 12:18 PM   #35
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
I don't play poker. Challenge electrical, he's drawing one too
If you don't play badeucy how can you expect to have an accurate representation of people's ranges for both pre-flop and appropriate post-flop action.
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Old 08-28-2017, 12:41 PM   #36
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

My badugi math assumes that I am roughly 60% to made a badugi in a 4card game drawing one on three streets. I think if I made a 9-9 after the first draw I would pat feeling more confident in winning half the pot with a 9badugi than a 87432 lo.

I definitely agree with you that BTNs most likely hand is a rough 3card badugi hand like 346,356, etc as you mentioned as he should be 3! 1 card draws pre, but many players will also call two card badugis/3 card lows with a 2 as well (23r7xx, 24r7xx, etc) as they are behind our range but have position and will price weaker blind hands (34rxxx, 28rxxx, etc) into the pot.

Also I am aware that my previous posts look like I am confident drawing 2 is best but I am mostly trying to argue that side since I believe it is a reasonable position to take and was discounted early on as an option (although I still feel it is the best play, maybe not so much after all the responses ). When you discuss card removal, to me, staying PAT from the start is looking like a healthier option than drawing 1 as well. Drawing 1 to a 5 or 6 to improve for half the pot, along with many of those cards being dead, really kills both sides to our hand.

When you say you'll take your chances of the other player making a 7-8 badugi vs our nut 3 card I feel you underestimate how showdown bound people are in this game who will often showdown any badugi esp vs a PAT hand from beginning and those drawing two on river. Also, in regular 2-7 is it standard to PAT the 87432 4 way from start in a similar situation/If so, what is the worst hand we are PAT with here?

For the badeucey sims, are you talking about running rugged sims by hand or is their a specific program you use?

Thank you all for the responses.
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Old 08-28-2017, 01:06 PM   #37
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
If you don't play badeucy how can you expect to have an accurate representation of people's ranges for both pre-flop and appropriate post-flop action.
I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
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Old 08-28-2017, 01:13 PM   #38
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by NedSchneebly View Post
I feel you underestimate how showdown bound people are in this game who will often showdown any badugi esp vs a PAT hand from beginning and those drawing two on river. Also, in regular 2-7 is it standard to PAT the 87432 4 way from start in a similar situation/If so, what is the worst hand we are PAT with here?

For the badeucey sims, are you talking about running rugged sims by hand or is their a specific program you use?

Thank you all for the responses.
I've probably played more hands of badeucy then anybody in world last few years, it doesn't mean that anything I say is correct but I do have a very good grasp of hand ranges, river frequencies etc. and think you mis-categorize how showdown bound people are on the river. I would say people likely draw 2 on the river to often, but often showdown to infrequently in those same spots,

Yes, they will showdown any badugi vs a pat hand but that doesn't mean if they make worse than a 9 and sometimes a 9 on the first 1-2 draws multiway they are keeping it and they aren't taking 2 on the end vs a pat hand without as least 245 for 3 card which we already stated is unlikely so the showdownable badugi may occur not as often as you may think.
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Old 08-28-2017, 01:28 PM   #39
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

I've moved my position somewhat to something like

Draw1 >>>>PAT>>>>>>>>>Draw2

Don't think we can say that the card removal aspects are great enough to stop us from drawing one. One guy is drawing 3, that's usually 27. Some players will call with hands like (23)7. Some of those hands listed like 347 are very good for us.

I would say that pat probably has more hot and cold equity, but for it to be the optimal play it needs to far exceed the draw 1. Because if it's close, and I would believe it to be, I take the implied odds hand
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Old 08-28-2017, 01:57 PM   #40
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
When people don't 3 bet pre and take 2 in a multiway spot like this their hands tend to be heavily concentrated to deuceless 3 card hands, 346, 356, 456, 347, 357, 367, 457, 567, and 3 the card 8 combos.
I don't understand how you can say this when OP has told us nothing about what game this is or who is in it. I totally believe that it's true of your game from other things you've said about it, and I agree that if we can put our opponents solidly on those hands patting becomes much more appealing.

It's still kind of disastrous if we're up against something more like 346, 24(7) and 34(8) though, and not weighing the risk of that seems nuts to me. Especially since both blinds have only called a single raise to get here.
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Old 08-28-2017, 02:37 PM   #41
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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I don't understand how you can say this when OP has told us nothing about what game this is or who is in it.
because thats just largely what people have. They can have plenty of 3 card badugis containing a deuce as well, like 267, 256, 246, etc but most of these hands are more likely than not to contain blockers for our hand. and some of these hands are still 3 bet a much higher % of the time that the previously mentioned range.

I think we can all agree they are more likely to have 567 than 234 here for example and thats not good for us.
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Old 08-28-2017, 02:45 PM   #42
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
because thats just largely what people have. They can have plenty of 3 card badugis containing a deuce as well, like 267, 256, 246, etc but most of these hands are more likely than not to contain blockers for our hand. and some of these hands are still 3 bet a much higher % of the time that the previously mentioned range.

I think we can all agree they are more likely to have 567 than 234 here for example and thats not good for us.
I think we can also all agree that a 347 is more likely than 567

Not sure who would have the 567. BB drawing three and it would be a real loose call by the others.
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Old 08-31-2017, 11:04 AM   #43
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by NedSchneebly View Post
I didn't mean to sound patronizing, if anything his initial response was much more condescending without providing any real explanation.
Why I don't stay pat:

In a 4-way pot I assume I will see a badugi of some kind at showdown, so if we don't draw we are playing 87 as an almost pure lowball hand. Multiway it won't hold up as often as it will shorter, and if we get in the middle of hands playing back at us we will have to play the hand defensively. Breaking to draw later gives us fewer chances to improve than drawing from the start, and comes at the cost of abandoning our showdown value, presumably the reason we patted in the first place.

Why I draw one rather than two:

234/7 is an absolutely premium one-card draw. If we drew 2 and caught non-badugi 7/x we would certainly keep the 7, and hey look we have one already. We are drawing to the strongest pat hands, and if we make one of them we may be able to get several bets multiway on multiple streets. If we draw 2 a likely outcome is a modest badugi and no pat lowball hand, and in a 4-way pot we'll be in a similar situation as with an 87 and no badugi, ie having to play defensively because our hand is one-way and relatively weak for that half.

Of course sometimes we brick three times and the pot goes to a King low and a Ten badugi, but that's more than paid for by the times we get half of a pot we can inflate confidently or all of a whopper.

As regards card removal, it matters, matters more when we have fewer outs to improve, and I'm not convinced we don't have an advantage there anyhow. With somebody drawing 3, we likely have a dead card advantage with so much of his range being 23, 24, 27, 34. Very unlikely he has 5,6,8 in his hand, and the D2 players will also have a lot of wheel cards. The rest I don't want to speculate about since we don't have the in-game history that would tell us how poorly these players are willing to draw, and I think it is dangerous to posit precise hands for D2 players in split draw badugi games.
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Old 08-31-2017, 01:50 PM   #44
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

Fwiw if we were dealt 23478 in 2-7 in a multiway pot patting would be good
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Old 08-31-2017, 02:57 PM   #45
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Fwiw if we were dealt 23478 in 2-7 in a multiway pot patting would be good
And if it held up they'd give you the whole pot.
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Old 09-01-2017, 05:29 AM   #46
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

Staying Pat: Card removal + Fold Equity + half decent 2 way hand vs.

D1: nutty draw + nut tri + possible RIO if we make a 9/10 badugi after first or second draw

D2: really shouldn't be considered and I don't think any winning players are taking this line.

My intuition says D1 and scoop all the monies (if we make a 7/7 or 8/7). But some posts have me questioning whether a smaller pot with a larger chance of at least winning half and possibly scooping may be the way to go.

Staying pat puts a lot of pressure on our opponents to decide whether we have a 2s3s4s6c7c, or whether we a have a real 2 way hand - and how they should make their drawing decisions.
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:08 AM   #47
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by MacauBound View Post
Staying Pat: Card removal + Fold Equity + half decent 2 way hand vs.

D1: nutty draw + nut tri + possible RIO if we make a 9/10 badugi after first or second draw

D2: really shouldn't be considered and I don't think any winning players are taking this line.

My intuition says D1 and scoop all the monies (if we make a 7/7 or 8/7). But some posts have me questioning whether a smaller pot with a larger chance of at least winning half and possibly scooping may be the way to go.

Staying pat puts a lot of pressure on our opponents to decide whether we have a 2s3s4s6c7c, or whether we a have a real 2 way hand - and how they should make their drawing decisions.
Whether this pot is big or large really isn't up to you with three other players in the pot.

I've heard the card removal arguments but I'm really not swayed too much. Guy drawing three almost certainly has 27,23,24. He does not have 56. The cold caller on button does not have 567 or 568.

It would have to be demonstrated to me that pat has a tremendously amount of hold/cold equity vs D1. Because if it's in the same ballpark I'd take the D1 and implied odds all day. I error on the side of implied odds versus a hand where on the end there could be raising from a few players. What do you do then? Call a cap and hope they have strong badugis?
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:16 AM   #48
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

Quote:
Originally Posted by NedSchneebly View Post
My badugi math assumes that I am roughly 60% to made a badugi in a 4card game drawing one on three streets. I think if I made a 9-9 after the first draw I would pat feeling more confident in winning half the pot with a 9badugi than a 87432 lo.

I definitely agree with you that BTNs most likely hand is a rough 3card badugi hand like 346,356, etc as you mentioned as he should be 3! 1 card draws pre, but many players will also call two card badugis/3 card lows with a 2 as well (23r7xx, 24r7xx, etc) as they are behind our range but have position and will price weaker blind hands (34rxxx, 28rxxx, etc) into the pot.

Also I am aware that my previous posts look like I am confident drawing 2 is best but I am mostly trying to argue that side since I believe it is a reasonable position to take and was discounted early on as an option (although I still feel it is the best play, maybe not so much after all the responses ). When you discuss card removal, to me, staying PAT from the start is looking like a healthier option than drawing 1 as well. Drawing 1 to a 5 or 6 to improve for half the pot, along with many of those cards being dead, really kills both sides to our hand.

When you say you'll take your chances of the other player making a 7-8 badugi vs our nut 3 card I feel you underestimate how showdown bound people are in this game who will often showdown any badugi esp vs a PAT hand from beginning and those drawing two on river. Also, in regular 2-7 is it standard to PAT the 87432 4 way from start in a similar situation/If so, what is the worst hand we are PAT with here?

For the badeucey sims, are you talking about running rugged sims by hand or is their a specific program you use?

Thank you all for the responses.

Its much easier to make a 8 dugi than a good 8 lo, feeling confident about a 9 dugi ( even the best 9 dugi) holding up multiway is crazy

Phone posting but I will link a helpful simulator when I get back

87432 is #10
But 9perfect dugi is behind
2345
2346
2347
2348
2356
2357
2358
2367
2368
2378
2456
2457
2458
2467
2468
2478
2567
2568
2578
2678
3456
3457
3458
3467
3468
3478
3567
3568
3578
4567
4568
4578
5678

probably messed up the combinations but its pretty common to toss 9 dugis on the 1st draw because of the huge number of hands they lose to,

Last edited by monikrazy; 09-01-2017 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:43 AM   #49
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

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Originally Posted by MacauBound View Post
Staying pat puts a lot of pressure on our opponents to decide whether we have a 2s3s4s6c7c, or whether we a have a real 2 way hand - and how they should make their drawing decisions.
I don't think dealt pat hands are as intimidating as some in this thread imply, and subsequently have less FE.

Speaking from in-game experience, not a theoretical perspective, pat Badeucey hands overwhelmingly comprise made lowball hands with 2- or 3-card badugis, and the incomplete badugis tend to involve their bigger cards. From opponent's perspective, no good 3-card badugi or mixed-suit lowball hand will fail to draw and most will want to show down any improvement.

Dealt pat hands in games of this type are always seen as vulnerable for half the pot.

This is a good argument for keeping a nut-3-card pat lowball hand, something I'm marginally against in this thread, but principally because the pot is 4-handed and our lowball hand is only #10.
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:34 AM   #50
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Re: Common Badeucey Spot

yeah if someone patted this early on i would assume they have something like a rough 8 and a three card 6 or something or a made 9/9 T/T

pretty easy to play against and also everyone else in the pot is happy to keep it at 1 bet per street unless they can whipsaw you.

i like drawing 1

three handed i like patting tho, thats prob where i draw the line
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