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08-25-2017 , 01:17 AM

NedSchneebly

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 310

I raise EP with 2h3d4s7s8s get called by the BTN and both blinds.

Flop: Goes 2-3-2(Hero)-2. I draw two to the 234r and brick. It checks to me I bet, everyone calls.

Turn: 1-2-2-2. I draw two and catch 7h and Kc. SB bets, BB folds, I call, BTN calls.

River: SB draws 1. My question is do I draw one to the 234r7 or should I draw two in hopes of scooping? What if I thought SB did not yet have a badugi?

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08-25-2017 , 01:47 AM

dead..money

banned

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 176

Easiest pat ever from start

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08-25-2017 , 01:51 AM

chillrob

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20,855

I would have thought easy pat first draw if headup, but would have tossed the 8 multiway. Never would have considered drawing 2.

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08-25-2017 , 01:51 AM

NedSchneebly

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 310

What if 8s was a Qs from start? Also badeucey is such a showdown bound game I'm not quite sure patting from start 4 way is best but I could be wrong. 3way I'm patting this as well. 5way is a pretty slam dunk draw 2 IMO.

Also I'm most interested in river draw

Last edited by NedSchneebly; 08-25-2017 at 01:57 AM.

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08-25-2017 , 03:14 AM

Tapirboy

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,993

I'm always drawing 1 on the first round, and as played on the third. This really isn't close. If you draw 2 you've thrown away two sevens and an eight, how do you expect to win the 2-7 side? There aren't any cards left.

I also think betting the second round as played is pretty bad.

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08-25-2017 , 04:59 AM

RolldUpTrips

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,334

nonono never draw 2. Maybe you can break and draw 1...definitely not 3-ways maaaybe 4. Never draw 2 to this hand.

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08-25-2017 , 06:08 AM

monikrazy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,046

Pat

I think if the game was pure triple-draw that it would at least be close to toss the 8 but here sticking to your guns with a high-probability lo should be preferable, its pretty easy to make a medium strength dugi and lose both ways

As played draw 1 on the river and always show down unless you are 100% villain has a badugi for this line

Last edited by monikrazy; 08-25-2017 at 06:15 AM.

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08-25-2017 , 01:19 PM

ScotchOnDaRocks

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 7,200

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tapirboy

Have to agree that drawing 1 is the clear play for me and nothing else is a consideration.

Didn't feel like reading the rest of the hand lol

Staying pat is the worst play by far. I'd draw 1 if I was up against just one other play or six others.

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08-25-2017 , 02:02 PM

kimoser22

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 3,822

Im in the draw one camp regardless of players as well, though if I caught the 8 again I would prob pat

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08-25-2017 , 04:38 PM

#10

OtherMoachist

enthusiast

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by NedSchneebly

I raise EP with 2h3d4s7s8s get called by the BTN and both blinds.

This tells me a bunch about our opponents. No one is 3 betting. Button calling two bets is bad here. He has to either fold or raise.

With that in mind, patting an 87 with a perfect 3 card is gonna get chased down a good deal of the time, so I draw 2. Even on last draw.

Multiaction pots in Badeucey can make you lose your mind.

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08-25-2017 , 06:39 PM

#11

monikrazy

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Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,046

I still think pat is miles above draw any given the action, not only that, I think this would often be a pat in a 6way pot

Having an 87 perfect is so much stronger than regular 2-7 td because rougher badugis and offshape (4 card fragments like 7653 or 6543 that solid players would rarely have in td) get in the way of smooth lo draws that would otherwise be much more of a threat

Make the hand 87632 and I think we should draw 1-2 against competent opponent, the 875xx ones are where it gets tricky imo

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08-25-2017 , 10:08 PM

#12

Tapirboy

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,993

I think both the pat side and the draw two side are underestimating how great a starting hand 234(7) is. Like if you have 234(68) I think it's probably worth thinking about keeping it. But this is pretty much a super-premium hand and playing it for marginal profit is a bad idea.

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08-26-2017 , 04:04 AM

#13

monikrazy

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Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,046

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tapirboy

If I had to do an equity share calculation based on the draws I think it would be something like

Pat: 40%
Draw 1: 35%
Draw 2: 28.5%

Of course, there are plenty of times it doesn't reach showdown

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08-26-2017 , 10:54 AM

#14

ScotchOnDaRocks

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Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 7,200

Quote:

Originally Posted by monikrazy

If I had to do an equity share calculation based on the draws I think it would be something like

Pat: 40%
Draw 1: 35%
Draw 2: 28.5%

Of course, there are plenty of times it doesn't reach showdown

Those numbers are possible. Let's say they are correct. I still chose Draw 1 for its playability and implied odds.

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08-26-2017 , 10:54 AM

#15

electrical

Loaded for bear

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,280

Quote:

Originally Posted by monikrazy

Of course, there are plenty of times it doesn't reach showdown

In a 4-way pot this is optimistic. You should play this hand assuming you will have to show down. Even if you do something clever on a street and knock a player or two out you will have to show down a raised 4-way pot the great majority of the time.

FWIW I would play it D1 from jump.

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08-26-2017 , 07:53 PM

#16

Jon_locke

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 4,180

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks

Staying pat is the worst play by far.

no its not.

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08-26-2017 , 07:55 PM

#17

Jon_locke

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 4,180

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tapirboy

I think both the pat side and the draw two side are underestimating how great a starting hand 234(7) is.

I agree, but I think you and everyone else is underestimating how great of a hand 234(78) is

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08-26-2017 , 08:49 PM

#18

Jon_locke

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 4,180

Quote:

Originally Posted by monikrazy

Having an 87 perfect is so much stronger than regular 2-7 td because rougher badugis and offshape (4 card fragments like 7653 or 6543 that solid players would rarely have in td) get in the way of smooth lo draws that would otherwise be much more of a threat

This is a good post and part of the reason I lean towards patting. Additionally Nobody 3 bet pre so its unlikely any of them have 234, 235, 245, and far more likely they have either a 2 card badugi or rougher 3 cards that are going to be behind on the badugi side and drawing near dead already on the 2-7 side.

Its very easy to get scooped by 3-5-6 when we break. Its very very hard when we are pat. There's other reasons as well but I'm not going to get into those to much

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08-26-2017 , 10:19 PM

#19

ScotchOnDaRocks

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Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 7,200

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon_locke

I agree, but I think you and everyone else is underestimating how great of a hand 234(78) is

no its not lol

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08-26-2017 , 10:24 PM

#20

chillrob

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20,855

I can't imagine in a 4 way pot that no one is going to end up with a Badugi; seems like patting is just playing for half the pot.

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08-26-2017 , 11:08 PM

#21

zoogenhiem

old hand

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1,632

And this is why I love mixed games and new banana games. People I respect greatly and generally snap accept as being right are disagreeing

Thanks for posting this spot, OP. Very good thread.

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08-27-2017 , 02:00 AM

#22

Tapirboy

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,993

Quote:

Originally Posted by monikrazy

If I had to do an equity share calculation based on the draws I think it would be something like

Pat: 40%
Draw 1: 35%
Draw 2: 28.5%

Just out of curiosity, how much equity do you think these pat hands have in the same situation?

234(57)
245(67)
234(58)
23(457)
24(567)
28(347)

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08-27-2017 , 06:15 AM

#23

monikrazy

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Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,046

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tapirboy

Just out of curiosity, how much equity do you think these pat hands have in the same situation?

234(57)
245(67)
234(58)
23(457)
24(567)
28(347)

The way I approach these spots is by first trying to estimate the odds the low hands hold up at showdown before accounting for the badugi side. Good 3 card dugis have value. So for the 87432 hand discussed, against everyone drawing 2 the lo should stay best let's say 70-80% of the time.

Example
Lo wins
87432: 75%
86xxx: 80%
85xxx: 85-90%
7: >95%

Then give the premium 3 card badugis something like 10% equity for that side. This doesn't account well for the (extra?) fold equity pat hands can create.

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08-27-2017 , 11:48 AM

#24

ScotchOnDaRocks

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Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 7,200

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

I can't imagine in a 4 way pot that no one is going to end up with a Badugi; seems like patting is just playing for half the pot.

Correct, and if two other hands start going at it and raising you are in a terrible position. So the times you do not win will be extremely costly. Or maybe in other times you will fold the best hand.

Contrast that to drawing 1. The times you do not win will be less costly on average especially after the last draw because if you brick out you don't have anything. But you can make a powerhouse drawing 1 and scoop a huge one.

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08-27-2017 , 12:52 PM

#25

Jon_locke

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 4,180

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks

no its not lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoogenhiem

And this is why I love mixed games and new banana games. People I respect greatly and generally snap accept as being right are disagreeing

Thanks for posting this spot, OP. Very good thread.

clearly only way to settle dispute is with a HU badeucy match. sounds fun, I accept, any stakes is fine

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