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Old 06-17-2017, 06:02 AM   #1
Dynasty
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Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

This is an Archie (Triple draw high-low split) hand from the Bellagio 40-80 mix game. You need to make and 8-or-better to qualify for low and a pair of sixes to qualify for high.

I'm a player in this hand but I'll tell the story from another player's perspective since my opponent had the big decision to make.

The hand:

We're playing seven-handed.

An early position player raises. She's plays reasonably well and certainly isn't getting out of line with an EP raise.

I'm in middle position and three-bet. This should be recognized by all the other players as a strong holding.

It's folds to the Big Blind who has A37XX.

The Big Blind calls and so does the initial raiser.

Three players take the first draw with 9 1/2 small bets in the pot.

First Draw
The Big Blind draws two and catches A3768

The EP draws two and I draw one.

Big Blind checks. EP checks. I bet.

Big Blind raises. EP thinks for a bit and folds.

I call.

Two players take the second draw with 6.75 big bets in the pot.

Second Draw
Big Blind stands pat. I stand pat.

Big Blind bets and I call.

Two players take the third draw with 8.75 big bets in the pot.

Third Draw
At this point, the Big Blind went into a long think with his A3768

His basic thinking is "If my opponent has a low, I'm beat for sure. If''s he's got a high, we're chopping if I stand pat but I may have scoop outs if I discard the 8."

Can the 8 be discarded on the third draw in this situation?

Should it have been discarded on the second draw when you don't know your opponent is going to stand pat behind you?
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Old 06-17-2017, 07:05 AM   #2
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Ok first of all I would fold this hand pre. You're likely behind on both sides and a 3-flush is not easy to fill. You often just end up making a kind of crappy low and just trying to show it down. For two bets of course you can play but for three I think it's too weak. Make the 7 a steel wheel card, maybe even a 6, and it's a good deal stronger.

Having caught the 6s I would definitely not pat-and-pray with an 876, you have too high a chance to make either that ace high flush or at least a 7-low with 2 draws to come.

Now that you've pat behind after this action (particulary without 3b flop), you probably don't have a high so I'm guessing you had a wheel draw and made like 75. I guess he probably has to break and draw to the high - note that he also has 9 outs to pair and escape vs a low in addition to his 9-out flush draw.

Having said all of this, Archie is an extremely challenging game (for me) to hand-read and play well, and many aspects are extremely counter-intuitive as compared to other split games, so perhaps my advice/read isn't THAT much better than throwing darts lol.
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Old 06-17-2017, 07:23 AM   #3
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Edit: I have been playing with a 99 qualifier so going to think about this some more before replying again

Last edited by monikrazy; 06-17-2017 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 06-17-2017, 03:52 PM   #4
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Edit: I have been playing with a 99 qualifier so going to think about this some more before replying again
Yeah, that is how I have heard of it recently as well. But the only time I ever actually played it (and I'm guessing it was a very new variant at that time), I'm pretty sure we had no qualifier for high. Do people just make the rules up every time the game is called? At least I see some possible reason for the 99 qualifier; I don't get a 66 at all.
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Old 06-17-2017, 06:38 PM   #5
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

fold preflop. otherwise check call first draw and take 1. patting is not good and I don't think any street is very close.
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:56 PM   #6
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
At least I see some possible reason for the 99 qualifier; I don't get a 66 at all.
No qualifier would allow low only hands to scoop, makes it easier to play lows. 99 qualifier means a low draw cannot backdoor into a pair, makes it harder to play lows. That 66 is the qualifier is arbitrary but it makes it such that some but not all low cards can qualify if paired. I wouldn't play with less than any pair to qualify for the high. Personally I prefer 6s qualifier over 9s especially if played shorthanded.
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:41 PM   #7
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

this is an interesting game, i first played it a week ago in the same bellagio 40 and am still retroactively trying to figure it out

i think flop play by the BB is mediocre, would prefer calling and keeping it multiway and drawing 1 to the better low and the flush. there's no guarantee that the checkraise knocks any players out (I guess if your checkraise fails to knock anyone out then it's a much easier break) but even still, if you get it HU and pat then you're rarely scooping i think. i think once it goes pat pat after the flop draw it's a super easy check call to either break or just check call down praying for half, the bet out seems bad.

whats most interesting to me about this hand is predraw, because i often had a hard time deducing ranges when people were drawing 2. like i think if you had trips then you're supposed to be drawing 1 instead of 2 because you balance your range to include more low ish hands, and thus your 3bet and draw 2 means you probably had an ace wheel wheel of a suit or something. but i'm not sure i'd be 3betting that hand in this version of archie, i'd almost want to coldcall to invite more players in multiway.

i had a hand kinda like this that involved an open EP from a loose player and a solid player 3bet and I was in the SB with QQQA9 and I didn't jam it when I probably should have. I just kept calling and keeping players in and drawing 1, and then when I hit my boat on the turn the action went i check, EP player bets, and the LP 3bettor raised it, and I just called instead of 3bet. If I 3bet I may have knocked out EP's low and scooped versus LP's high hand, but it was hard to figure out what LP's high hand was because who draws 2 if they have trips? didn't make sense. nothing makes sense yet in this game to me

Last edited by Clayton; 06-18-2017 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:39 AM   #8
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Results:

After his deep think, my opponent said "I'm going to go for the World" and drew one. I stood pat again.

At this point, I realized he broke a low and was drawing to a flush or straight.

My opponent looked at his new card and bet. I raised. He called somewhat resigned.

I tabled a full-house: 333TT.

He tabled a low made on the last draw (and no flush): 7653A
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:44 AM   #9
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Did you start with 2 pair, or with trips and just drew one for deception?
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:55 AM   #10
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Regarding my own play, I was dealt 333TA and drew one card to the 333T.

I doubt it's actually relevant. But, I discarded the Ace specifically because somebody in front of me raised. So, there was a higher than normal chance that she had an Ace in her hand.

However, the opposite must be true. Players who are folding their hands are less likely to have an Ace. Therefore, I'm sure it all balances out.

Obviously, I caught the 333TT full-house on the first draw. So, it worked out.

I bet after the first draw, got check-raised, and was heads-up.

In Archie, I don't see a powerful argument for three-betting here. If my opponent has a low, we're guaranteed to chop (unless he does something crazy like break his low ).

If he has a high (after drawing two cards), it's simply a matter of who has the best high. I haven't seen players making big straights in this game. So, their not likely to be drawing to them and especially not with a two-card draw. The chances he has a flush or higher seem much higher than in other forms of poker where drawing to a Broadway straight is very reasonable.

So, I'm genuinely curious where 333TT ranks if my opponent has a high pat hand. What's my equity here?

I can't claim to have intentionally made a great high-level play to represent a stronger low in order to get my opponent to break his low. It happened by accident.

However, the hand has me thinking about how to recreate this in the future.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:04 AM   #11
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
...Archie is an extremely challenging game (for me) to hand-read and play well, and many aspects are extremely counter-intuitive as compared to other split games, so perhaps my advice/read isn't THAT much better than throwing darts lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
whats most interesting to me about this hand is predraw, because i often had a hard time deducing ranges when people were drawing 2. like i think if you had trips then you're supposed to be drawing 1 instead of 2 because you balance your range to include more low ish hands...
Hand reading in Archie is unlike any other poker game.

Just trying to figure out if your opponent is going high or low is tough. And if you can reliably do it, it would be a gold mine. Knowing your going high while two opponents are going low (and vice versa) would be free money.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:58 AM   #12
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

I think you played your hand well. Against most loose opponents you can put in more action later since their range will contain a lot of flushes. Against more solid opponents, calling down is much better as they will only be calling and drawing 2 with premium flush draws and trips in this spot. It's also worth noting that you block some key wheel cards so a high hand is more likely.


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Old 06-19-2017, 01:07 PM   #13
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Quote:
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In Archie, I don't see a powerful argument for three-betting here. If my opponent has a low, we're guaranteed to chop (unless he does something crazy like break his low ).
thing is, he drew 2 preflop. hard to come up with a high hand better than yours given the circumstances, it would basically require him having trips pre and drawing 2 or making a straight flush. if you can get a rough 7 or in his case an 8 low to break, then that's great. if he 4bets then you can just call pat and call down. risking 2 small bets for such a parlay seems pretty mandatory.
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:53 PM   #14
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

I think your opponent may have managed to play the worst hand of Archie In the history of the game after leading river with the 765
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Old 06-20-2017, 11:48 AM   #15
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

I've never played this game, but my gut reaction was how awful that river bet is by villain.

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Old 06-21-2017, 12:32 AM   #16
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

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Originally Posted by dead..money View Post
I think your opponent may have managed to play the worst hand of Archie In the history of the game after leading river with the 765

Not even close, raising the river with a bad full is also pretty debateable without the read villain has a lo no straight flush possible
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Old 06-21-2017, 04:06 AM   #17
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Even if my opponent has two outs for a straight flush, it's more than counter-balanced by the five outs he has for a losing flush (9,T,J,Q, and K of his suit) which he will presumably value bet the river with.
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Old 06-21-2017, 06:19 AM   #18
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Yeah, river raise seems standard to me. NH.
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Old 06-21-2017, 07:26 PM   #19
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynasty View Post
Regarding my own play, I was dealt 333TA and drew one card to the 333T.

I doubt it's actually relevant. But, I discarded the Ace specifically because somebody in front of me raised. So, there was a higher than normal chance that she had an Ace in her hand.
I found this idea interesting. I would be inclined to keep the A on the offhand chance you the stub gets emptied. I would much rather see a T get recycled than an A. This is probably very unlikely in this setting (as opposed to a home game) but that would be my reasoning.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:52 PM   #20
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Re: Bellagio 40-80 Archie: Make a Crazy Break?

Have to agree with others in that I don't like his call pre and I think he should have kept drawing to the flush after the 1st draw. The second mistake is bigger.

Three to a 6 with an ace seems like a good breakpoint. I'm sure he probably would have been in there with a hand like 234 suited and that would be way worse because many of your flushes would be lower

As some of you may know, I have four articles on Archie currently in the Magazine. Three to a low is definitely the most overrated hand in the game imo. I talk about it in the May issue on the Low Hands

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/i...hie-part-3.php
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