This 2-7 triple draw hand comes from the Bellagio 20-40 mix game. It's a seven-handed game with everybody dealt in.

The game plays very loose and always has lots of action. Hands routinely go three draws multi-way and any 9 is getting shown down (and probably a Ten).

UTG and an MP limped in.

I'm on the button with 8732 and raise.

Both blinds call and both limpers call.

Five players took the first draw with ten small bets in the pot.

First draw: Small Blind drew three. Big Blind drew three. UTG drew two. MP drew two.

I drew one and made an 87432

Everybody checked to me and I bet. Everybody called

Five players took the second draw with 7.5 big bets in the pot.

Second draw: Small Blind drew one. Big Blind drew one. UTG drew one. Then, MP stood pat despite his checking and calling.

MP is an overly-loose player who probably thinks he plays well. But, in this game and the 20-40 O/8 game, he's definitely a losing player who complains a lot about his hands not holding up. (usually, because he plays too many weak starting hands).

Is an 87432 good right now?

More importantly, how often will an 87432 win a showdown against this action?

And, should this hand be broken in order to draw to the 7432?

Breaking would be awful. I think there’s a strong argument for breaking the 8 off from the start.


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Your hand is almost always good now but you do see some weird play in live mixed. At any rate I would never break this.

Pre draw I’m not certain what the right play is, I kind of want to keep 8 because two players are drawing three and there might not be too many wheel cards out there to draw.

break 8 pre, bet and pat turn

By your description, MP prob started w something like 345xx or 256xx and made a 96 and I would value bet your smooth 87 perfect against him all the way, barring aggressive action by other opponents.

Honestly none of the decisions are close in this hand:
1. Draw 2 pre 5-ways
2. You have the nuts unless he raises the river in which case he was making some stupid slowplay. Having said that, I highly doubt that will happen since I think he is the player most likely to be deuceless pre.

Of the two, FWIW, pre is closer. Turn is super-super slam dunk

I think pre is slightly close because of the number of cards our opponents are drawing, smoothness of our 87 (eg 8762 is a trivial break) and the described game conditions. That said I would still probably draw 2.


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Hmm. I thought it was obvious draw 1 pre. Based on game conditions, blinds don't necessarily have to have a deuce. Drawing one should lead to more fe for the times we do bink flop, like we did here. More players in pot = more wheel card removal effects, making it harder to hit a d2.

Agree with drawing 1 to the 8. As played, stay pat. If villain leads you might even want to raise.

Running rough ranges:

8732

Vs

Assortments of hands such as

25
34
256
843

I have keeping the 8 as far superior to drawing 2. Hero will retain over a 40% equity advantage (even over 50 is possible) by drawing 1, and will have less than 30% drawing 2. I think running more extensive sims in this spot would conclusively prove that drawing 1 is much better.

i would have said drawing 1 pre was pretty bad this multiway so im interested in da sims

This illustrates something I've thought for a while. With many opponents drawing a lot of cards I think D1 is best because the odd collection of D2 and D3 hands will still have taken enough low cards out of circulation that 1) opponents will still be drawing multiple cards on subsequent draws a lot and 2) we are much more likely to make a pat hand drawing one than two.

Action would be different in alternate scenarios but vs two opponents I think D2 is better, vs three it would depend on how many cards they drew and if I could project reasonable ranges well enough to estimate removal effects, but I'm guessing I'd still play it D2 most of the time.

Regardless, as played I bet the turn and pat, expecting the other pat to be a worse Eight at best.

My testing tends to show 9xxx and 8xxx 1 card draws tend to outperform draw 2 in virtually any situation

Though with 9s it gets closer because giving up less than 10% equity in a 3way pot (for example) for better nut potential and/or playability is valid poker reasoning

Another factor for drawing 2 over 1 is not knowing how many cards an opponent yet to draw will take, especially if they might be pat and hero can draw smooth with 2.. or the increased difficulty of playing pat 9s oop

I would never keep a one card nine though regardless of the sims. I either want to spike some of the jokers and reap implied odds or go onto the next hand.

Regarding the one card eight sims, if they do not account for fold equity then you fare much better than the pure results suggest. You will basically always realize your equity while everyone else will not

Results:

It looks like I did what most wouldn't have done on the first draw (keep the 8732) and then did what nobody wanted and some were adamant against on the second draw (discard the 8 and draw to the 7432).

I binked a 5 immediately and made a wheel. So, obviously I won the pot.

My experience in 2-7 TD is limited to mixed games and very small stakes on Pokerstars pre-2011. But, my gut told me that against a pat hand and three one card draws, my equity was too low with a 87432 and I was better off drawing to the 7432. I though I was behind the pat hand some of the time (probably to an 86xxx more often than a 7xxxx). And, that the three one-card draws had 8-low draws or better (though possibly an 87-low draw).

Is there hard simulation data on 87432 vs. this range of hands? And 7432 vs. the range?

The rest of the hand:

After I discarded the 8, I made a 75432 wheel.

The first three players checked to the MP check-call patter and he bet.

I called mostly hoping one of the other three players made a hand and were check-raising.

Instead, the Small Blind and Big Blind folded. I can only assume they were drawing very weak and didn't want to play against a pat hand.

UTG called.

Three players took the third draw with 10.5 big bets in the pot.

Third draw: UTG drew one. MP patted. I patted.

UTG checked. MP bet. I raised. UTG foled. MP tanked and folded what he said was the "worst 7" (76542).

I can't explain his check-call-pat after the first draw. It's not something that I've seen very often in 2-7 TD. Though, I though it was unlikely he had a 9-low or worse.

87432 Again:

The next day I was dealt 87432 on the button, raised a limper, and played the hand three-ways with the limper and Big Blind.

Both players drew two and I discarded the 8. Again, I binked a 5 for a wheel and won the pot.

One of the reasons I made this thread is to make sure I'm not foolishly discarding 8s when I should be patting them.

I don't want to be lulled into a false confidence that a 5 will come every time.

Please please please come to my games and draw 1 to 9s

Let's not turn this forum into a flame turd fest like the PLO and limit hold'em forums.

If you disagree just say so, but draw/ mixed game players are a more sophisticated bunch imo, so let's hold that standard

You should not break 87432 3 ways given that action. I think it’s pretty bad.


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I skeptical that he had a 7. I would expect that he would have pounded harder when he was ahead, and at least called at the end. His line indicates a rough 8 to me.

I’ve seen some very passive play from three different villains over the past few months, like check calling 7s and #5, and I’m value owning myself with hands that should be good 99% time given the action. Usually it’s an older loose passive somewhat inexperienced with the game.

I apologize. You're right. There were classier ways of making my point.

No worries bud!

no no no no no no

raisy daisy

Dynasty: yeah you are foolishly tossing the 8 too often (particularly hand 2). Also take note of something inportant: your read is that everyone was drawing to beat your 87 in hand 1, but....
1) it’s nearly impossible they are all drawing live given card removal.
2) your described game conditions disagree. I mean how are they showing down all these 9s and 10s if they keep drawing smooth and/or folding turn a lot?
3) results indicate your read was very far off.

Also that guy is just lying about his hand. No way.

I think I would bet money that he was telling the truth actually. Not sure of what motivation there would be to lie and poker players are always very quick to let others know how lucky they were to beat them.

And in past two months in two different casinos with two different players I had guys check/call me for two streets with #4 and #5 when it went 1/1 on 2nd draw. Way different situations for sure but I often see bizarre passive play with strong hands.