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Old 03-19-2019, 06:04 AM   #1
tiger415
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Badeucy: Two 9 lows after first draw

There's 2 hands I'm wondering what to do on the 2nd draw. The game is played for small stakes. I also would appreciate comments on the other streets.

1st Hand:
I open 2356K in the CO
SB calls, BB calls
3-4-1 (I discarded the K. As a side question, should I discard the 6 as well?)

23569
SB checks, BB checks, I bet, SB calls, BB calls
3-2-1 (I ended up discarding the 9. I feel like that is a mistake now, because a 9 low should be strong with a 5 tri. My hand is also disguised as a low, so maybe by patting, I'll increase fold equity on the bigger streets and maybe I'll even get looked up by worse tris on the river, because ppl will put me on a low.)

2356Q
SB checks, BB checks, I bet, SB calls, BB calls
2-1-1 (I discard the Q of course)

2359J
SB checks, BB checks, I bet as a "bluff for the low" and a "value for the high"? I'm not sure if that logic makes sense, but I was thinking along the lines that maybe I can bluff out nine and ten high lows, while I may get value from worse tris that decide to hero call since I can just have a low.

---------------------------------------------------

2nd Hand:
I open 3485K HJ
BB 3b, and I call
3-1 (I discard the King. I'm not sure if there's any other way to play this hand. I feel like this is the only possible play.)

34859
BB checks, I bet, BB calls
2-pat (I have a really rough tri here as well as a rough low. I feel like my tri is almost never good, so I kinda feel like my pat was a mistake now. Also at game speed, I thought I had FE by patting. However looking back, villain did 3b pre and draw 2 on the 2nd draw, so it is likely he started with 2 small rainbow cards and it is very likely he hit a stronger tri already. Maybe he will always show this down. Due to this, I should have prolly discarded the 9 and draw to better?)

34859
BB checks, I bet, BB calls
1-pat

BB checks, is there merit to betting?
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Old 03-19-2019, 07:20 AM   #2
RolldUpTrips
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Re: Badeucy: Two 9 lows after first draw

Okay hand 1 it's absolutely correct to draw 1 and then pat the hand. Check the river.

Hand 2 I'm a little confused. he 3b your HJ open from BB and drew 3??? Either way draw 2 to 843. If this were (345)8 you would draw 1. I would NOT pat that 98. If you do he is freerolling you and if his tri is as good as his 3b pre would indicate he's extrmely likely to show it down and just freeroll you. River bet would likely be awful, espeically if this player has a tendency to show down incompletes, which his 3b pre leads me to believe.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:38 PM   #3
kisada
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Re: Badeucy: Two 9 lows after first draw

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Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
Okay hand 1 it's absolutely correct to draw 1 and then pat the hand. Check the river.

Hand 2 I'm a little confused. he 3b your HJ open from BB and drew 3??? Either way draw 2 to 843. If this were (345)8 you would draw 1. I would NOT pat that 98. If you do he is freerolling you and if his tri is as good as his 3b pre would indicate he's extrmely likely to show it down and just freeroll you. River bet would likely be awful, espeically if this player has a tendency to show down incompletes, which his 3b pre leads me to believe.
in hand 1 aren't we losing a lot of value with our hand by patting the 9/tri? a D3 and D4 are going to have a hell of a time catching up and we have a lot of chances to improve, no?
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:18 PM   #4
ScotchOnDaRocks
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Re: Badeucy: Two 9 lows after first draw

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Originally Posted by kisada View Post
in hand 1 aren't we losing a lot of value with our hand by patting the 9/tri? a D3 and D4 are going to have a hell of a time catching up and we have a lot of chances to improve, no?
The issue is that with 2356 you have less outs to make a 7 or 8 thus from 27TD perspective should keep the 9. Then with them drawing 3/2 hoping to lose at least one of them on turn. Think its way better here to keep 9.

As a side note my default with (235)6 is to toss the 6. A 7 is a no brainer keep and Id keep an 8 as well. If the draws were more normal like 2/2 or 2/3 I would have tossed the 6. I understand the decision to keep it when it goes 4/3 though.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:05 AM   #5
monikrazy
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Re: Badeucy: Two 9 lows after first draw

Hand 1 im drawing 2 for sure the first draw. Hand 2 i can go either way.

I think d1 hand 1 is a clear error. We have such strong dugi equity, if would be different if drawing to 2357 or 2358 or 2457 or 2458 or 2468 where we have stronger low side equity but in this case keeping the 6 effectively wastes any 4 draws.

Last edited by monikrazy; 03-20-2019 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 03-20-2019, 02:49 AM   #6
RolldUpTrips
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Re: Badeucy: Two 9 lows after first draw

532 is very strong against their billion card draws and 1-pat makes it extremely difficult for them to catch enough quickly enough to continue.

Monikrazy you have this a bit backwards. Tris with showdown value don't need to improve for the badugi half as badly as tris with none, as in hand 2. Drawing 1 just puts you in a ton of spots where you are drawing for half the pot at best (realistically).
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Old 03-20-2019, 02:59 AM   #7
kisada
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Re: Badeucy: Two 9 lows after first draw

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Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
532 is very strong against their billion card draws and 1-pat makes it extremely difficult for them to catch enough quickly enough to continue.

Monikrazy you have this a bit backwards. Tris with showdown value don't need to improve for the badugi half as badly as tris with none, as in hand 2. Drawing 1 just puts you in a ton of spots where you are drawing for half the pot at best (realistically).
So basically when you're thinking opponents are on a weaker tri, pivoting your own hand to just make a good low gains a lot of value? either to make them freeze their tri and draw to their own low or get pressured off the hand?
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Old 03-20-2019, 03:00 AM   #8
kisada
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Re: Badeucy: Two 9 lows after first draw

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Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
The issue is that with 2356 you have less outs to make a 7 or 8 thus from 27TD perspective should keep the 9. Then with them drawing 3/2 hoping to lose at least one of them on turn. Think its way better here to keep 9.

As a side note my default with (235)6 is to toss the 6. A 7 is a no brainer keep and Id keep an 8 as well. If the draws were more normal like 2/2 or 2/3 I would have tossed the 6. I understand the decision to keep it when it goes 4/3 though.
Yeah I think by default i'm tossing the 6 cause i don't wanna hold back my low side. And in this situation vs the 3:4 i'd expect to just go with the D1.
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Old 03-20-2019, 03:35 AM   #9
monikrazy
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Re: Badeucy: Two 9 lows after first draw

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
532 is very strong against their billion card draws and 1-pat makes it extremely difficult for them to catch enough quickly enough to continue.

Monikrazy you have this a bit backwards. Tris with showdown value don't need to improve for the badugi half as badly as tris with none, as in hand 2. Drawing 1 just puts you in a ton of spots where you are drawing for half the pot at best (realistically).
I understand that and still think d2 is the better play. Not really concerned about increasing fold equity yet with such a strong hand. Drawing to the 6 actually creates more chances for hero to go wrong at later streets and end up playing for half the pot with mediocre hands instead of drawing 2 to a super premium.

In this spot hero also has extra dead hearts so d2 is even better for the badugi side.
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Old 03-20-2019, 09:31 AM   #10
BradH
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Re: Badeucy: Two 9 lows after first draw

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Originally Posted by kisada View Post
Yeah I think by default i'm tossing the 6 cause i don't wanna hold back my low side. And in this situation vs the 3:4 i'd expect to just go with the D1.
I'm interested in folks saying the 6 holds back the low: is the thinking to basically pitch any 2-7 hand that a low card could bring in the straight?

if this was 345-7 would you throw the 7?
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Old 03-20-2019, 11:16 AM   #11
zoogenhiem
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Re: Badeucy: Two 9 lows after first draw

Thanks for sharing these interesting spots! Keep em coming.
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Old 03-20-2019, 04:50 PM   #12
kisada
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Re: Badeucy: Two 9 lows after first draw

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Originally Posted by BradH View Post
I'm interested in folks saying the 6 holds back the low: is the thinking to basically pitch any 2-7 hand that a low card could bring in the straight?

if this was 345-7 would you throw the 7?
yeah having a 1 gap will set you back, depending on what objective you're aiming for with the hand.

but as mentioned in the hand, depending on the circumstances you might feel it's a proper gamble to continue with that 1 gap.
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